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AAZCD (Forum Supporter)
AAZCD (Forum Supporter) Dork
6/29/20 11:36 p.m.

I regularly see Porsche 914s on Craigslist and the FB market for well under Challenge money. I'm talking about the ones that sat in a field since the 90s or are missing most of the easily removable parts. I could have bought a lot of three a year ago for $2,000 and one had a title. Oklahoma cars generally don't die from rust, so there may still be some lawn-art cars that are still pretty solid. I'm wondering if I should get one to rebuild for some street driving go-kart fun.

Would it be a bottomless money pit to get one back on the road? Is there anything to watch out for that would mean "too far gone."? Are the engines worth trying to rebuild, or better to replace? If not for rebuilding, is there anything worth parting from one?

I know I should stay away, but I'm selling a couple cars and 914s look like they don't take up as much space.

slowbird
slowbird SuperDork
6/30/20 12:08 a.m.

I don't have a clue, but I know they look cool as hell with a widebody kit. devil

pres589 (djronnebaum)
pres589 (djronnebaum) PowerDork
6/30/20 3:58 a.m.

I typed a bunch of stuff, but I don't have direct experience.  I would imagine as a resto-mod where originality and swapping bits from other cars is okay, this could be a workable project, but being able to make body parts that accident damage and rust have ruined seems like a key ingredient.  Otherwise the costs could get ugly.

Apexcarver
Apexcarver UltimaDork
6/30/20 5:34 a.m.

I have been under the impression that they love to rust in pretty critical and difficult to repair locations, but I dont have direct experience with them. 

Even "non-rusty" 914s are rusty. Check thoroughly. While prices are on the rise, is that only for original ones? A special using a Boxster drivetrain sounds great to us idiots, but would you be destroying its value? 

I dunno, but I like them, but feel they need lots of updating to drive in a modern world. As a weekend fun car, an aircooled 914 could be fun. Kind of hard to justify the price/work with your affinity for Boxsters. I guess the question is do you want one?

Wow, what a rambling non-answer. Need more coffee.

ddavidv
ddavidv PowerDork
6/30/20 6:00 a.m.

Porsche part prices with air cooled VW performance.

I think there's better things to spend money on.

stroker
stroker UberDork
6/30/20 7:33 a.m.

I'd like to find one, too.  Unfortunately I've missed out on a couple of local candidates by hours only to find the Bob Costas who bought them immediately listed them on Ebay trying to flip them for 3x the money he paid for the rusty hulks.  

Tyler H (Forum Supporter)
Tyler H (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UberDork
6/30/20 7:41 a.m.

I always had a hard time looking at 914s because there were so many cheaper, better-condition Fiat X1/9s around.  But neither one of those ever interested me enough to buy because the MR2 is a thing. 

If you want a Porsche with an air-cooled 4, go for a 912 or a 356. Higher buy-in, but much higher resale.  

DWNSHFT
DWNSHFT Dork
6/30/20 7:47 a.m.

Jack up one corner and check how the doors open and close.  It's easy for 914s to rust so bad the door will strike the sill in this test.

I pulled all the following from my earlier posts on 914s:

My first race car was a modestly modified 914 2.0 (four cylinder). I had a lot of fun in it and scored my first race win.

PROS: -They are simple cars. Really, really simple. Easy to work on, even from underneath. -Most parts are inexpensive, especially if you get the VW part number interchange. -Lightweight: mine weighed about 1950 pounds with cage. -Interchangability with 911 stuff. Suspension, steering, brakes, wheels, transmission, engine, go crazy. -There is no substitute for a lightweight, mid-engine car. Awesome steering feel and turn-in, great balance. Out-trail-braking 911s in decreasing-radius turns is great fun. -Roomy interior. I was actually quite comfortable in mine on long highway drives. I even slept in it once. -Lots of support -Pelican Parts. They rock. -Smell of air-cooled VW and burned oil come at no extra cost. -LOTS of luggage space. -I would Megasquirt. -How many of you remember those super-cool flat metal turn signal stalks from the 70s VWs? 914 got them, too. -PCA is a great club. -Panorama is an awesome magazine (newsletter). -Porsche Owner's Club is supposed to very good; not sure if they're active up there. -Porsche Club Racing has very high-caliber drivers. -Ain't nothing else like a 914. -Top comes off, if you like that sort of thing.

CONS: -Rust. -Rust. -Rust. -Flexible chassis, even without rust. -Leaks. Even after you replace the roof seals. -The rear shifter (1970-1972) is possibly the worst-shifting manual ever. The side shifter (1973-1976) is only somewhat better. Upgrading from rear-shifter to side-shifter is supposed to be fairly easy. -First gear is a stump-puller which sometimes makes for extra 2-3 shifting when autocrossing. -Crappy seats. Easy to change. -Poor oil cooling. Hey, it's mid-engine. -Oil slosh issues. I wasn't able to fully address this. -Weak rear semi-trailing arms. Reinforce these. -Mediocre stock brakes. Easy to upgrade front discs and master cylinder; more expensive to upgrade the rears. But there was a rumored BMW 320i conversion that was supposed to be cheap and easy; look into that. -Not a lot of side-impact protection. But not different from other old sports cars, or even an early Miata. -Stock engines are mediocre but respond very well to hot-rodding. Very known quantity for tuning. -Automobile Atlanta. Run, don't walk, from those guys. -Adjusting the valves is a PITA, especially the two hidden by the semi-trailing arms. -VDO tach will bounce. Get it rebuilt at North Hollywood Speedometer. -Hinges on the engine lid and rear trunk tend to break and cause leaks. Not difficult to fix.

Bottom line, they have many of the excellent traits of the early 911s (simple, robust, light weight, classic feel) with the advantage of mid-engine weight distribution. But they have some of their own special issues. I always enjoyed autocrossing mine, even though it was never set up for that.

Black is somewhat unusual as it was a $300 option (which was a lot back then). I think "eurospec" usually refers to the higher european compression ratio; that was 8.0 versus 7.6 for the US 2.0 liter cars. Not sure on 1.8s. 1973 got the front bumper boxes, the rears started in 1974. Pay particular attention to rust on the right front of engine bay (hidden by battery) and also the corresponding corner of the passenger compartment, behind the passenger seat. Mine had rusted from the former into the latter. It's easier to address if you remove the interior and the battery, but those bottom corners of the engine bay are a tough reach [unless you pull the motor and do it seated in the engine bay ].

I'm certainly no engine-builder, but I had a 2.0 liter 914 engine built for my race car (of long ago). Engine was mostly stock, balanced, with 8.0 compression pistons, very open exhaust, Weber 44mm carbs, and a 356C distributor. It never saw a dyno, but based on on-track comparison to another mostly stock 914-6, I would guess that mine had similar power. The 914-6 was rated at 110 horsepower, but given that we were all running open exhaust, call it another 10 horse, so maybe 120 at the crank. But that was not a muffler you'd run on the street. I'm sorry I can't give solid numbers but I don't have any. But at least it gives you a start. My engine was severely limited by the stock cam.

Personally I would: balance, 8.5 compression megasquirt for fuel injection and ignition, cam, Shift at 5600 RPM Have fun! Even 140 HP in a 2000 pound car will be fun.

I was told the number one way to blow up these motors was neglect the oil. Duh. But the number 2 way to blow them up was to overrev them. Factory rev limit was 5600 and (I was told) they blow up at 6000. This is not a 911 engine, don't try to rev it like one.

The roof seals leak. Period. No matter what. I spent about $400 in 1990s money to replace all of them, and it still leaked. And within two years the new seals starting falling apart and it leaked worse. When it lived outside it lived with a shower curtain over it to keep the water out. Of course, that abraded the paint. Fortunately, it is easy to pull the carpets to dry the interior, if ambient humidity is reasonable. Because it will get wet if it rains.

You will smell like burned oil. No, I didn't say you will smell burned oil, but YOU will smell of burned oil. I think it's just the way air-cooled Porsches and VWs are. Like it, live it, celebrate it, but learn to deal with the smell. It will permeate your clothes.

Do not rev past 5600 RPM, period. Ever. No, not even once. The bottom end can't handle higher revs.

They don't have the power to exploit the chassis.

Some people are confused by the heater controls.

There are no cupholders.

In fact, other than the glovebox there aren't many places to stash your stuff. So while you are compensating for your lack of power by pitching it hard into corners your stuff while be flying all over the interior.

They never came with 911 seats, which are my favoritist seats on the planet. Most 914s had vinyl seats, with all the stickiness and sweatiness that implies.

They run hot.

All engine work is done through the little engine lid or from underneath.

Most of them have a bouncy tach and it's >$100 to fix it. But you have plenty of time to interpolate your revs because, well, see above.

You have to open the front deck lid to fill the gas tank.

It's expensive to upgrade to five-lug hubs so you can run Fuchs. Because, well, you want to run Fuchs, right?

You like body lean, right? Lots of body lean?

Now, if you think I'm hating on 914s, I'm not. I loved mine for many reasons. But you asked to be un-enabled. :-)

On my 914 race car I replaced all the fuel lines with new rubber lines. If you can't find steel, it's an easy alternative and much better than thirty year old plastic.

914s are cool. They have true Porsche feel. They are simple cars and easy to work on. They have an oil slosh problem. Side shifters are not good, and rear shifters are terrible. That said, I raced mine with a rear shifter and only missed shifts occasionally... ;-) The cool thing is to upgrade to 911 brakes and 5-lugs, and it's easy in front but not in back. Solution in back used to be to use early 1970 hubs (cast for both 4- and 5-lug applications) but those were rare and expensive. Rear fender space is limited to about 205s, and that's with rolling the fenders. Oh, they run HOT on track. They really need a front-mounted oil cooler. I tried hard to make a rear-mounted cooler work and, well, it never did. Chassis can be flexible, and rust can fold them in two. Rust inspection is key: jack the car up, pull the wheels, and look up the fender wells into all the corners. Also, the front corners of the engine bay are a major trouble spot. The roof seals leak, are expensive to replace, and will leak again in two years. Just accept it: all targas leak. They have lots of trunk space and the stock seats aren't good. If the tach bounces send it to Hollywood Speedometer for a rebuild. The chassis is very popular for engine swaps but you still need to solve issues of cooling, shifter, rigidity/rust...

Bottom line, the 914 makes a fabulous basis for an all-conquering $150,000 race car. I built a $15,000 914 race car and it was very challenging. As a street car there is a ton of fun to be had with them. I'd really love to see a megasquirt conversion.

 

dps214
dps214 Reader
6/30/20 7:52 a.m.

In reply to Tyler H (Forum Supporter) :

The 912 is probably the most appealing of the VW engine Porsches. The last run of them from the 80s with the cis engines missed the boat on being collector items and I think aren't too hard to find in decent to good condition for $10k or less. And they look and mostly drive like a 911 and aren't rust buckets like the 914s. If you really want a budget air cooled car that seems like the way to go.

stuart in mn
stuart in mn MegaDork
6/30/20 7:52 a.m.

GRM had a 914 project car some years ago, that story may be worth reviewing:  https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/project-cars/1973-porsche-914/

yupididit
yupididit UberDork
6/30/20 8:09 a.m.
dps214 said:

In reply to Tyler H (Forum Supporter) :

The 912 is probably the most appealing of the VW engine Porsches. The last run of them from the 80s with the cis engines missed the boat on being collector items and I think aren't too hard to find in decent to good condition for $10k or less. And they look and mostly drive like a 911 and aren't rust buckets like the 914s. If you really want a budget air cooled car that seems like the way to go.

Never seen a running or none-rust bucket 912 near $10k

Tyler H (Forum Supporter)
Tyler H (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UberDork
6/30/20 8:10 a.m.
dps214 said:

In reply to Tyler H (Forum Supporter) :

The 912 is probably the most appealing of the VW engine Porsches. The last run of them from the 80s with the cis engines missed the boat on being collector items and I think aren't too hard to find in decent to good condition for $10k or less. And they look and mostly drive like a 911 and aren't rust buckets like the 914s. If you really want a budget air cooled car that seems like the way to go.

I don't think you'll find one that isn't a total basket case for under $20k these days.  Drove a 912 with an overhauled engine that was a 1776cc...very quick car and totally impressed me compared to similar 911s and 356s.  I had to drive one to get it, but I like them!  

Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter)
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/30/20 9:11 a.m.
yupididit said:
dps214 said:

In reply to Tyler H (Forum Supporter) :

The 912 is probably the most appealing of the VW engine Porsches. The last run of them from the 80s with the cis engines missed the boat on being collector items and I think aren't too hard to find in decent to good condition for $10k or less. And they look and mostly drive like a 911 and aren't rust buckets like the 914s. If you really want a budget air cooled car that seems like the way to go.

Never seen a running or none-rust bucket 912 near $10k

I passed on a 912 in the early 2000's for ~$7k iirc. It had a blown out spark plug, which I had neither the talent, tools, knowledge, or money to get fixed. My dentist at the time ended up buying it & needed so rust repair in the chassis too, so it's a good thing I let it slip away. I did get to ride in it though, and the performance surprised me. 

AAZCD (Forum Supporter)
AAZCD (Forum Supporter) Dork
6/30/20 9:39 a.m.

In reply to DWNSHFT :

That is a great reply. Thanks for taking the time. Reading about the oil smell put me back in the seat of my '71 Super Beetle - which I last drove in the early '80s. I love that smell. I took a look at Pelican, then scoped out parts at Rock Auto. Pretty good prices and availability for a '70s car.

In Reply to Tyler and some others:

A 912 or 356 is not going to happen for me. I am not looking at restoring a car for value or collectability, but for the curiosity of all things mechanical and fun of driving it. Still, my recent visit with the owner of some rusting 356s got me wondering if I'd enjoy a 'back from the dead' rebuild project. I have thought of Karmann Ghias and old VW bugs, but the finished product is not something I'd enjoy as much as a 914.

Right now Mrs AAZCD is giving me a 'soft' "No." That means that there's a project for the house that needs to be done before I add another car project to the list. For myself, I need to complete the sale of two Boxsters, haul off the husk of a parts car and find a new home for the '89 Cabriolet running project car. Meanwhile, lots of stuff to research and read. Thanks.

 

dps214
dps214 Reader
6/30/20 9:44 a.m.
Tyler H (Forum Supporter) said:
dps214 said:

In reply to Tyler H (Forum Supporter) :

The 912 is probably the most appealing of the VW engine Porsches. The last run of them from the 80s with the cis engines missed the boat on being collector items and I think aren't too hard to find in decent to good condition for $10k or less. And they look and mostly drive like a 911 and aren't rust buckets like the 914s. If you really want a budget air cooled car that seems like the way to go.

I don't think you'll find one that isn't a total basket case for under $20k these days.  Drove a 912 with an overhauled engine that was a 1776cc...very quick car and totally impressed me compared to similar 911s and 356s.  I had to drive one to get it, but I like them!  

Sorry, I wasn't super clear and had my facts a little confused. I meant the 76 912e with the 2.0cis motor. Really nice ones are still big money but good driver condition ones can be found for ~$10k without too much effort. If I had to pick a budget air cooled car, it would be that. A couple of years ago a friend and I briefly considered splitting the cost of one to use as a rallycross car but decided the engine was just too anemic in stock form and a boxster would be cheaper, faster, and more durable.

Tyler H (Forum Supporter)
Tyler H (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UberDork
6/30/20 10:21 a.m.
dps214 said:
Really nice ones are still big money but good driver condition ones can be found for ~$10k without too much effort. If I had to pick a budget air cooled car, it would be that. 

Please forward me any running 912s you see for $10k.  All day, every day. laugh

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
6/30/20 10:51 a.m.

FWIW, prices for top examples of the 914 have been moving upward.

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
6/30/20 11:16 a.m.
Tyler H (Forum Supporter) said:
dps214 said:
Really nice ones are still big money but good driver condition ones can be found for ~$10k without too much effort. If I had to pick a budget air cooled car, it would be that. 

Please forward me any running 912s you see for $10k.  All day, every day. laugh

Any running 914s you find for less than $10K will need a LOT of work and probably have a lot of rust.

dps214
dps214 Reader
6/30/20 11:26 a.m.
Snowdoggie said:
Tyler H (Forum Supporter) said:
dps214 said:
Really nice ones are still big money but good driver condition ones can be found for ~$10k without too much effort. If I had to pick a budget air cooled car, it would be that. 

Please forward me any running 912s you see for $10k.  All day, every day. laugh

Any running 914s you find for less than $10K will need a LOT of work and probably have a lot of rust.

I admit I'm not really seeing any at the moment (or really any for sale at all). There were definitely a few around a few years ago, maybe they finally caught a ride on the air cooled bandwagon. The 912e is from 1976 and at least in theory has a galvanized chassis.

rob_lewis
rob_lewis UltraDork
6/30/20 11:32 a.m.

I get my eye turned by the ones that pop up on craigs fairly often.  While I understand that they rust, I would assume that being down here in the south, there's less of a chance of it.  I know about the battery rust hole of death.

If you're going for an original car, then I agree that it's a huge money pit.  If you're looking for something just fun to tinker with and don't care about originality, might be worth considering if the buy in is cheap enough.  With rising prices, it's possible to buy one cheap, futz with it for a year or two and if you decide you don't like it, sell it for what you paid for it or maybe even a little profit.

My thought process was one with a VW engine in it instead of the Porsche one.  A VW type IV engine can be punched out to 3 liters or more without too much effort and that light of a body with that big of a motor would be a hoot.  Never dug deep enough to figure out what transmission it would need.  I figured if I replaced anything Porsche specific with aftermarket or VW, it could still be done without too much cost.  Plus, if the prices do blow up on them like every other air cooled Porsche, the VW motor could swapped back to the Porsche one without too much headache.  As opposed to stuffing a V8 or a water cooled Subie engine in one.

-Rob

Snowdoggie
Snowdoggie Reader
6/30/20 11:46 a.m.

I would go for the turbo Subaru engine in a ratty 914. I love my 914 but it is slow with only 84 horsepower. The Subaru conversion would probably be cheaper than rebuilding the original engine or trying to make a 914-6 replica with a 911 engine. Even air cooled VW stuff is getting to be expensive now. Add box flares and sticky tires and you would have a great track car. I think there is even an outlaw conversion kit for the Subaru motor. 

They look like a reasonable way to check the Aircooled Porsche box, without buying/driving a 911.

Definitely not a Porsche guy, but that package deal currently in the Cars for Sale is something I'd consider if I had more room.

rustybugkiller
rustybugkiller Dork
6/30/20 12:31 p.m.

What DWNSHF said it's pretty much spot on.

however, being the owner of a 914 that was never rusted I missed a lot of the issues that he brings up. One of the best things to do with a 914 is eliminate  all of the heater crap underneath. My car was used for driving to and from HPDE so there was never a need to retain the heating system. This makes working on the car so much easier and illuminates the majority of the oil smell issue. I found an oil cooling system that goes under the rear engine lid from someone years ago. I forget the name brand but it eliminated my issues while on track. They are still a great car to play with and to drive. And although I'm not much of an autocrosser  they are pretty impressive on a tight course.
 

Interesting issue with the oil starvation issues. I bought the car off of the original owner who had installed a big bore kit. Something like 2.3 or 2.4 L not sure it's been too many years. However, I drove that car with that engine and no oil starvation issues whatsoever. It did have overheating issues though. That engine got pulled for a rebuild which was botched by a incompetent  mechanic. Instead of dealing with that motor for a number reasons I put in stock 2 L which was rebuilt by a reputable place. But I had issues with Oil starvation at Nelson ledges carousel which I never had with the big bore kit motor. One day I'll take apart that big bore motor to play with it but since it's already been some 20 years it's not looking promising. 
 

There is a 914 on craigslist in my area claims to have a good body but a bad motor  that I'm tempted to go look at even though I have no means to purchase right now. Just curious how bad or how good it could be. 
 

914Driver
914Driver MegaDork
6/30/20 1:25 p.m.

I lucked out when I bought an Arctic Blue one with a 2.0 - 5 speed, pretty rust free with 55k miles.   I had one before and welded in new floors, available from Pelican.

Everything above is true.  I've owned British and Japanese sports cars from the 60s, but in a 914 you don't bang shoulders with the passenger.  If you don't mind laying a blanket on the trunk and laying face down while working with only one hand, go for it.  It's a fun car.  Porsche people treat you like Harley people treat non-Harleys, you're just not in the club.  Because of its small frontal profile, other cars see you and say "Oh he's two blocks away" and pull out, be ready.

The 914 project GRM did was nice, I learned a lot about how BMW brake bits cross over and how to get snot out of a 2.0 engine.  If you knew me, you'd know I'm not loyal to any brand and not opposed to bastardizing any vehicle.  Would I have a Miata over a 914?  Absolutely not.  Is a 914 my first choice?  Absolutely not. 

Poke around 914World.com, pretty informative folks mostly left coasters.  Look for a club in your area, go for a ride; you may hate it.

I like 'em .....

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