Are KBB values off as you get near the bottom in price?

I'm looking for either a small car (e.g., ford focus) or compact truck with a manual transmission in the Atlanta area. I am finding that what folks are asking is WAY out of line with the KBB value. For example, I'm going to look at an 02 focus tonight with 133K miles in great condition (according to the ad) for what I thought was a reasonable asking price of $2100. When I looked it up on KBB however, the value was more like 1300!!!! This has been happening over and over. Are the KBB values skewed near the bottom, or are these cars and trucks really worth the KBB value?

well, the closer you get to $0 means the fewer sale transactions happen through a dealer (and non-dealer transactions may not get recorded). So kbb and others have less good data to make their value judgement with.

Things like a manual transmission can also throw kbb off because they are independently sought out separately from others in some cases, but I bet kbb does not treat them separately.

Finally, kbb has no idea how the car has been maintained. that is a bigger driver of value than anything else when dealing with a 10-15 year old car.

Usually though KBB seems high to me, so buying a used car ABOVE kbb is usually something I try to avoid.

If it seems in line with other asking prices, is well maintained, and fits your needs, don't worry too much about kbb. (But remember your insurance will probably send a check for KBB value if the car is totaled).

A lot of good points above. I will also add that KBB is mostly a dealer book so it tends to be high on resale and low on trade. Most insurance companies don't use it.

rpt50 wrote: Are the KBB values skewed near the bottom...

Yes. As others have said... way too many variables when cars get that old.

As others have said, older cars' values are much more condition-dependent than model-dependent, but KBB has no way of accounting for that. Plus, they've always been way off when it comes to enthusiast cars, IMO.

And I have yet to have a dealer come within 25% of the KBB "trade in" value when I'm trying to trade something in. Which is a major reason I haven't traded anything in for more than 10 years.

Another point to consider is wholesale vs. retail/private. KBB is a generalization of wholesale/auction figures, a focus with that sort of mileage is a low demand product in an auction setting, but in a private party setting it becomes much more of a "what are people willing to pay" scenario.

This one seems to be more accurate for my area.

http://clearbook.truecar.com/

I gave up on KBB in Michigan over a decade ago. Edmunds.com seems to be fairly spot on.

So, you found a car in great condition for a price you thought was fair, but hesitated to look at it because KBB said it was worth $800 less?

Sounds to me like the only thing KBB is doing for you is keeping you from buying the vehicle you want at the price you would enjoy.

Fair market value is what a buyer is willing to pay a seller when neither one of them is under duress. KBB is clueless.

On older and non-common vehicles they are all wrong. The reason is they don't have enough data to make the equations an accurate representation of the market.

KBB is also fairly California biased. That has been a problem with all their data.

Grtechguy wrote: I gave up on KBB in Michigan over a decade ago. Edmunds.com seems to be fairly spot on.

I found the same. For a car at the bottom of the curve, you can't really look at any online pricing, except for maybe a make-centric forum/club.

SVreX wrote: So, you found a car in great condition for a price you thought was fair, but hesitated to look at it because KBB said it was worth $800 less? Sounds to me like the only thing KBB is doing for you is keeping you from buying the vehicle you want at the price you would enjoy. Fair market value is what a buyer is willing to pay a seller when neither one of them is under duress. KBB is clueless.

THIS. I can find little to no correlation between KBB values and reality. Don't let it affect your decisions.

I hate managing a few facebook classified groups where people start throwing KBB values on older cars with enthusiast followings to lowball sellers.

I know if I am after a specific model, I may look at KBB as a baseline, but if the condition exceeds my expectations and the asking price is higher, I would pay for the car especially if other local ads are priced similar.

NADA is closer to what actually happens in my area. At least in the sub $4,000 car market.

I have to say, situations like what the OP described wind up costing me a couple car sales a month. There will be some nice old car that perfectly fits someone's needs. They're all excited to buy it because they've been shopping awhile and it's the best option in their budget. And then at the last minute they read KBB. Now all of a sudden I'm ripping them off. The price that was okay is now unreasonable. And their search continues.

I'll tell you this. The retail numbers KBB uses on lower-end cars are often less than I could expect to pay at a dealer-only auction. Every once in awhile I get someone wanting to trade or sell me their car, and the only research they've done was to read KBB, and so I look like a saint when I pay suggested trade value for their car with no haggling whatsoever.

SVreX wrote: Fair market value is what a buyer is willing to pay a seller when neither one of them is under duress. KBB is clueless.

You are 100% right. The internet changed what people are willing to pay. They are doing all kinds of research to see what other people are willing to pay for similar merchandise and expanding their searches further than they did 20 years ago when all they had was the Local Thrifty-Buy-Rite and newspaper classifieds.

I also think that more inoperable cars and cars that might run but have problems passing emissions are getting sold, and that is bringing down the overall values in the sub $2500 market.

For the record KBB has no way to track private party sales. That is the biggest lie they put out there. The have numbers for what the car is sold for via their dealers and they have numbers from those dealers on what the cars were bought for (like that isn't a manipulated number!)

Neither reflect the Auction market that dealers have available to them. You can buy access to that now too.

rpt50 wrote: I'm looking for either a small car (e.g., ford focus) or compact truck with a manual transmission in the Atlanta area. I am finding that what folks are asking is WAY out of line with the KBB value. For example, I'm going to look at an 02 focus tonight with 133K miles in great condition (according to the ad) for what I thought was a reasonable asking price of $2100. When I looked it up on KBB however, the value was more like 1300!!!! This has been happening over and over. Are the KBB values skewed near the bottom, or are these cars and trucks really worth the KBB value?

KBB values are massively skewed at the low end.

I think a lot of it is people wither misrepresenting the condition of the car (a lot of people think their "fair" car is "good", and pretty much anything that requires repair is "poor" but people will pass that off as "fair") and also people cheating on their taxes by putting a low number as the purchase price.

Flight Service wrote: KBB is also fairly California biased. That has been a problem with all their data.

That would explain why, say, a Passat that would go for $3000 locally would have a KBB of $800.

Knurled wrote:

Flight Service wrote: KBB is also fairly California biased. That has been a problem with all their data.

That would explain why, say, a Passat that would go for $3000 locally would have a KBB of $800.

If it's a diesel, the reason is different.

Until the recent fiasco (not sure if it's changed), VW buyers have put a big premium on TDI's, and don't give a rat's pitard about KBB.

NADA is what lenders often use to determine max loan values.

SVreX wrote:

Knurled wrote:

Flight Service wrote: KBB is also fairly California biased. That has been a problem with all their data.

That would explain why, say, a Passat that would go for $3000 locally would have a KBB of $800.

If it's a diesel, the reason is different. Until the recent fiasco (not sure if it's changed), VW buyers have put a big premium on TDI's, and don't give a rat's pitard about KBB.

This was 3-4 years ago when I was looking for an early 1.8t model.

just lost another sale to KBB.

really nice, low mileage Park Ave Ultra. The kind of car you could own five years while spending very little. Customer was thrilled to have found such a nice car. Called me back this morning. Informed me asking more than KBB suggests. No longer interested. "they'll let me know..."

berk KBB

belteshazzar wrote: just lost another sale to KBB. really nice, low mileage Park Ave Ultra. The kind of car you could own five years while spending very little. Customer was thrilled to have found such a nice car. Called me back this morning. Informed me asking more than KBB suggests. No longer interested. "they'll let me know..." berk KBB

where did you get that 96 roadmaster? there was a dealer in omaha listing a similar (same one?) on craigslist for awhile. Just wondering if he auctioned it or you got it from him?

I would say with a focus in particular, maintenance means a lot. If your looking that cheap most will be the zetec and probably need a timing belt done. If it has been done I can see asking more. But the sad fact is most people see them as throw awaya and just get rid of them or drive them till they die and don't do the maintenance. I wouldn't mind paying more for one that has been well kept.

old_ wrote:

belteshazzar wrote: just lost another sale to KBB. really nice, low mileage Park Ave Ultra. The kind of car you could own five years while spending very little. Customer was thrilled to have found such a nice car. Called me back this morning. Informed me asking more than KBB suggests. No longer interested. "they'll let me know..." berk KBB

where did you get that 96 roadmaster? there was a dealer in omaha listing a similar (same one?) on craigslist for awhile. Just wondering if he auctioned it or you got it from him?

Copart. real legit 80k mile car.

Right quarter was mashed. Normally I could have just fixed it, but replacing/matching that wood panel seemed unlikely. We actually found a donor car that was the same color and everything right here in town, so we were able to cleanly cut and replace the whole panel with virtually no paint. Problem solved.