As I am building an Exocet and had a couple Miatas so far on track and autocross I love the idea. I do think to be fair to the kits and Miatas alike the venue is critical. I would say a balance track that doesn't just reward high power and aero efficiency nor great handling because it is so tight would be a must or doing a couple tests such as an autocross and a more open track.
I also would like one of the Miats included to be a Spec Miata as they are more of a known quantity for easier comparison.
Request like that are how tests go from "easy, let's do this" to "this is going to be too difficult logistically to pull off".
Why try to make it "fair" to the Miatas? They're heavier and (in the case of the Catfish) less aerodynamic. A performance difference is to be expected. A Spec Miata also has severe constraints on power levels, while the kits do not.
I expect any article of this sort would not be a scientific examination of the performance potential of one possible version of cars that can be built dozens of different ways, but a taste of what they feel like to drive.
Adrian's initial suggestion was just the sort of thing GRM is liable to do and would make an interesting read.
icaneat50eggs wrote:
speaking of which, keith, if you were starting with a stock Miata, and were working towards a great all around track/autocross/weekend driver, what would you spend the money on? and what order would you upgrade stuff?
I'd start by fixing what's broken or worn out. Take advantage of any upgrade opportunities this includes, like a lightweight flywheel if you do a clutch.
Each generation has their weak and strong points, but generally I start with suspension because that's where the best bang for the buck is found.
For power on a fun car - not a competition car - start at the back. A different muffler will free up some power but will also make the car sound more fun.
Most importantly, have the end goal in mind. If you're going to turbo the car, you'll want to avoid mods that would just come off again like a header. Same with suspension, get one that will grow to your final target if necessary. It's why my track car has one setup and my street car has another - I know what they'll ultimately be asked to do.
The inclusion of a spec miata might be a good benchmark to better understand the performance of these kits.
We have a 1.6 spec built by a reputable shop at our place, but it's on old rubber. I can tell you that a naturally aspirated 1.8 Exocet will hang with a Spec down the front straight at Laguna Seca, then drive away in the corners.
Keith Tanner wrote:
Request like that are how tests go from "easy, let's do this" to "this is going to be too difficult logistically to pull off".
Why try to make it "fair" to the Miatas? They're heavier and (in the case of the Catfish) less aerodynamic. A performance difference is to be expected. A Spec Miata also has severe constraints on power levels, while the kits do not.
I expect any article of this sort would not be a scientific examination of the performance potential of one possible version of cars that can be built dozens of different ways, but a taste of what they feel like to drive.
Adrian's initial suggestion was just the sort of thing GRM is liable to do and would make an interesting read.
I trust that GRM can pull it off. They have done tire test comparisons and suspension tuning articles that take complicated theories and make them straight forward and less complex to understand with hard data for readers to compare.
I think everyone gets it that the Exocet is light and thus better in braking and cornering but has aero drawbacks. The Catfish balances some aero and some weight and modified Miatas don't change weight dramatically but can improve power/weight ratio and or handling and braking. What everyone wants to know is how much each of these impacts the total package in hard numbers of lap or course times at a track and autocross where many readers use their cars and in acceleration,lateral Gs and braking performance. The total package is what makes the real difference not so much where it does it.
The whole test can be worthless if it is done in a way that makes it too lopsided. Put V8 Miata or Exocet at VIR and the others won't stand a chance just look at the UTCC results. Put them on a super tight or kart track and the V8 cars advantages almost disappear.
No one person or company need provide all the cars or location. Maybe an invitational even with Miata tuners/builder companies and individuals would be a good way to do the testing and article. K Miata/Exocet, V6 Miata/Exocet, LS Exocet and Miatas as well as turbo and Supercharged versions.
This is called "scope creep" :) How many cars are you up to, and how precise does the spec have to be? Looks like at least 10 cars, and they all either have to be built to a specific budget or they have to match up to some theoretical spec.
I've been involved in a few magazine tests. The bigger and more complex you make it, the more difficult it is to pull off and the less likely it is to happen. A simple "how do these kits compare" article is a totally different beast than an instrumented shootout, and there will always be the "they should have tested an X and the track totally favored the Y" bitching afterwards.
You say this is what you say "everyone" wants to know. I suspect it's what you've decided you want to read, while most would be happy with "so what's an Exocet like to drive, anyhow"? We already know that even that simple answer varies depending on the builder, GRM found that out when doing the Exocet test last year. Which was, btw, uninstrumented.
The tire test articles are mostly Andy Hollis trying to figure out what to run next year :) They're relatively easy to arrange.
Whatever GRM decides to do, I'm up for it. If it involves dragging 4 cars 1800+ miles across the country, I hope you'll all pitch in.
Whatever this may or may not lead too (Please, Please!!! do something) this is the single most relevant thread to my current garage situation. After much contemplation I passed on my other final two (a boxster and wrx) and settled on a 1993 NA6. The next great debate in my house currently is on Catfish vs. Exocet vs. V8R kit and LS3. Any assistance in decision making is helpful.
Keith Tanner wrote:
Whatever GRM decides to do, I'm up for it. If it involves dragging 4 cars 1800+ miles across the country, I hope you'll all pitch in.
I have a trailer, a selection of tow vehicles and vacation to burn.
Owning a v8 exocet, in truth it needs more power to reach its potential. 500-530rwhp I think is going to be the sweet spot of more power is going to slow me down at this point. Mine makes a hair over 400 right now, but it's (quite) easily managed with aero and tires. It's not as bonkers as you might think - long gears help.
We hear you guys. Let me see what we can put together.
Keith Tanner wrote:
This is called "scope creep" :) How many cars are you up to, and how precise does the spec have to be? Looks like at least 10 cars, and they all either have to be built to a specific budget or they have to match up to some theoretical spec.
I've been involved in a few magazine tests. The bigger and more complex you make it, the more difficult it is to pull off and the less likely it is to happen. A simple "how do these kits compare" article is a totally different beast than an instrumented shootout, and there will always be the "they should have tested an X and the track totally favored the Y" bitching afterwards.
You say this is what you say "everyone" wants to know. I suspect it's what you've decided you want to read, while most would be happy with "so what's an Exocet like to drive, anyhow"? We already know that even that simple answer varies depending on the builder, GRM found that out when doing the Exocet test last year. Which was, btw, uninstrumented.
The tire test articles are mostly Andy Hollis trying to figure out what to run next year :) They're relatively easy to arrange.
Whatever GRM decides to do, I'm up for it. If it involves dragging 4 cars 1800+ miles across the country, I hope you'll all pitch in.
10 cars is not that big for a trackday group or autocross run. Getting the cars together is a bit more complicated but with so many V8,Spec Miatas and the growing Exocets it shouldn't be too insurmountable.
Like you said there will always be bitchin about what was used or wasn't. That doesn't mean it isn't worth it to try and have balance and reasonable comparability between cars and venue.
I based my comment on what readers would want on the facts of how much discussion is on facts and objective data rather than subjective opinion like how something is to drive. A lot of threads including the Exocet thread had lots of comments on weight,weight distribution and power to weight ratio. Plenty more bench racing and data discussion when it comes to autocross and track day toys and directions to go. It is what I would like to see but if you don't vote don't bitch is my motto.
I like to think of myself as a realist or person who understands the challenges and that nothing is perfect but strives for greatness rather than a pessimist who just points out the difficulties or how something is not perfect. Different strokes for different folks.
icaneat50eggs wrote:
Keith Tanner wrote:
Whatever GRM decides to do, I'm up for it. If it involves dragging 4 cars 1800+ miles across the country, I hope you'll all pitch in.
I have a trailer, a selection of tow vehicles and vacation to burn.
I can vouch for this man's willingness to road trip!
Zeitgeist wrote:
I like to think of myself as a realist or person who understands the challenges and that nothing is perfect but strives for greatness rather than a pessimist who just points out the difficulties or how something is not perfect. Different strokes for different folks.
I'm the sort of guy who looks for ways to get things done instead of looking for ways they can't - but I'm also a bit of a realist. Going from "I'd love to hear what these three kits are like to drive" to "We need a fully instrumented shootout of every possible way to use Miata parts to make a fast car with an undisclosed but crucial budget on an imaginary track that will play to all of their strengths" is not necessarily realistic.
Of course internet discussions are bench racing looking for hard data, that's all you can do on the internet.
Keith Tanner wrote:
Why try to make it "fair" to the Miatas? They're heavier and (in the case of the Catfish) less aerodynamic. A performance difference is to be expected.
Can you elaborate on this point pleased Keith. How why is the Catfish less aerodynamic than the Exocet or Westfield? I can see it may have a larger frontal area, but unlike the other two it doesn't have any exposed suspension, frame rails etc. which really screw up the air. If allowed F1 would trade off more frontal area for a cleaner body in a heart beat.
To the magazine. Please don't let scope creep kill the possibility of the idea. With or without a Miata base line would still be fine. I realize absolute parity just isn't possible unless we have sealed, dyno'd spec engine, control tires from the same batch with the same heat cycles etc. That's pointless. Give us you're impressions of potential, weight, feel etc.
Please please please
What he said. Whatever you can get together with as little or as much info.
One thing I'd love to see is an "average guys". Take on the vehicles in addition to the all stars you guys usually use.
Adrian_Thompson wrote:
Keith Tanner wrote:
Why try to make it "fair" to the Miatas? They're heavier and (in the case of the Catfish) less aerodynamic. A performance difference is to be expected.
Can you elaborate on this point pleased Keith. How why is the Catfish less aerodynamic than the Exocet or Westfield? I can see it may have a larger frontal area, but unlike the other two it doesn't have any exposed suspension, frame rails etc. which really screw up the air. If allowed F1 would trade off more frontal area for a cleaner body in a heart beat.
I think Keith is saying that the Catfish is more aerodynamic than the Miata, not that it's less than the Exocet.
I'm kind of surprised by that, I would have thought that even a 20-year-old OEM design would come out ahead in aero over a kit car.
codrus wrote:
Adrian_Thompson wrote:
Keith Tanner wrote:
Why try to make it "fair" to the Miatas? They're heavier and (in the case of the Catfish) less aerodynamic. A performance difference is to be expected.
Can you elaborate on this point pleased Keith. How why is the Catfish less aerodynamic than the Exocet or Westfield? I can see it may have a larger frontal area, but unlike the other two it doesn't have any exposed suspension, frame rails etc. which really screw up the air. If allowed F1 would trade off more frontal area for a cleaner body in a heart beat.
I think Keith is saying that the Catfish is more aerodynamic than the Miata, not that it's less than the Exocet.
I'm kind of surprised by that, I would have thought that even a 20-year-old OEM design would come out ahead in aero over a kit car.
It might be because the Catfish typically uses a mini windscreen or none at all. I imagine that if you took the windshield off of a Miata, it'd be as good or better than the Catfish. The Exocet is an aerodynamic monstrosity, but is so good in so many other ways, few people care.
Mr. Wallens
If life happens and you and your staff can't pull it together, I'd be thrilled to organize it.
I may not know much about cars but I can organize and burn up the telephone and email, and since I'm currently car project free this would not only help fill my time but also answer what my next project would be.
The Catfish has hidden talents: a flat bottom, fully shrouded wheels (when seen from the front), a functional diffuser and very few body seams. The Miata has never been a wind tunnel star, I think top down an NA is about 0.41.
My statement was that the Miata is less slippery than the fish.
I bet the catfish is significantly better than .41. My highly calibrated eye pegs the exocet Cd at about 3234.
Is there a Catfish build thread hiding on the magical interwebs somewhere?
Adrian_Thompson wrote:
Is there a Catfish build thread hiding on the magical interwebs somewhere?
There's the Flyin' Miata one here
https://www.flyinmiata.com/projects/catfish/index.php?UID=1
