Audi info?

Alright... i have talked myself into seriously digging into this subject with my "Brutal in car videos" thread. Way to go, me.

I have a dream, and it SEEMS like it should be straightforward and easy on the surface, but i'm wanting the Audi gurus' input here.

My thought:

Audi Coupe Quattro, Audi 80, or 90 Quattro, any of these three with the 5-cylinder motor, manual tranny, and awd.

Remove motor.

Insert Audi 5 cylinder 20v turbo motor from S2/RS2/S4.

Insta-hoon.

Is this really this easy? Does anyone know of any major wiring issues, transmission issue with this, etc etc etc? Any idea where to find these motors? I searched Ebay with no real luck, but then again, i'm not 100% sure what to even search for at this point.

Can anyone point me to the best Audi forum for older models?

http://www.audifans.com/ was where most of the classic quattro fans used to hang out... I've been out of the community for a few years, so it may have been replaced by something else.

The type of swap you're thinking about has been contemplated to death... and actually done several times!

If you check out an ur-quattro and see what the factory did to cram all that stuff into what was designed as a four banger fwd engine bay, you'll see the complication. The few factory 20v ur-q's are even tighter... extremely difficult to access anything.

All of the cars you mention are roughly based on this chassis... the 5k/100/200 engine bay is much roomier... so that's what they based the 20V turbo car on (except the last urq's and S2).

It might be easier to find an A8 V8 motor and drop that in!

And there was at least 1 LT1 5000Q running around... I seriously considered an LS1 conversion... and then slapped myself back to reality. ;-)

Good luck! Bill

Thanks for the link! The 90 sedan could be had in 5spd, awd, and 20v, so i figure that's a good start, and i also REALLY like the way those look, even better than the old S4s.

The V8 is cool, but i'm going to want ludicrous power down the road on this is this takes fruition. I'll be in the market for the actual car in March.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/learn-me-audi-5-cylinder-turbos/9185/page1/

Good info there AudiFans and AudiWorld are the two forums I always frequented. Fourtitude is OK, mostly new-gen stuff.

When looking for engines, you'll want to search by engine variant as opposed to vehicle model...3B (200 20v turbo), AAN (S4), ABY (S2), or ADU (RS2). Good luck finding an ABY or ADU on these shores for less than a new kidney.

Note, you are not looking at a cheap or easy swap by any means. If you want bang for your buck, stay 10v. Even if you splurge and spend $5k on an ADU and swap it all, you're still going to be dealing with weak old axles, the worthless 4x108 bolt pattern, squishy suspension, an open center diff (unless you find a Coupe Quattro, which has a Torsen), and a non-LSD rear. It'll be virtually impossible to work on, as the 80/90 engine bay is simply not designed to accommodate all that hardware. As far as adding power goes, open up that checkbook...

(I own a 200 10v turbo...yes, again, and I owned a Coupe Quattro 20v. Trust me when I say that they are extremely expensive and hard to work on even when you're not upgrading them!)

I always liked the looks of the 90 coupe quattro - IIRC around 1989/1990/1991 it came with a 20v 5 - there was a euro s2 turbo version - road & track did a shoot out with an m3 evo, the audi and the benz 190

The 20v turbo is neither common nor cheap, but I believe was in the later 200 quattro (the last of the 5000s). At least as far as bolting things together it really is that easy, the wiring i have no idea though. The 4000 quattro would work too, I believe the general lee audi is the one that was sold as a 4000 here.

The General Lee Audi is an 80....

SlickDizzy... can the 10v make ludicrous power as well? If i do this, i'll be looking for well over 500awhp at some point. Just because. Oh... and thanks for the link. I couldn't find it, glad someone could.

Just finished re-reading that thread....

Alright, new question:

How much power can i really expect to make on the existing 20v motor in the 90 Quattro that i'll find without ventilating the block? Apparently these motors beg for turbos, so i'll give them one.

It's starting to sound that as long as i start with a 20v... i don't even need the 20v turbo swap, just add turbo.

Is this accurate?

The 10 valves are capable of pretty decent HP numbers, but keeping it street driveable and on pump gas are concerns that will keep you well shy of 500 chassis hp. Remember the displacement here...

The 20v is never going to make significant power without forced induction. That streetable/pump gas/displacement issue again.

I don't have a lot of experience with the 20v ( always stuck to 10 valves and the 80 chassis, mostly UrQs but a 4kq here and there) but given all the variables, I would think pulling a normally aspirated 20v and replacing it with a 20v turbo (fairly common in the 1991...corrected typo!....+5kQt and 200) would be easier than adapting a turbo to the atmospheric pressure limited 20v.

Frankly, I was not wanting for power just blowing about 14psi through a mostly stock 10v (only real mod was a "cheater" cam and a little better flowing exhaust)... but I was using a K24 turbo for better throttle reponse (which worked awesome on the street) but with the tiny UrQ intercooler, on the track the system would be heat saturated by the 2nd lap and I'd have no power at all... that little turbo needed a huge intercooler... or I needed a way to reduct throttle lag on the stock K26.

Bill

The 20v turbo motors were available in the '91 200's as a dizzy equipped motor, then in the '92-'95 S4's as coil on plug motors.

I currently own a '92 S4 and it's a great car. Power can be easily extracted from the 20v turbo motors, there are guys running 400awhp out of them and ~300awhp is just bolting the factory RS2 parts on.

wcelliot wrote: The 10 valves are capable of pretty decent HP numbers, but keeping it street driveable and on pump gas are concerns that will keep you well shy of 500 chassis hp. Remember the displacement here... The 20v is never going to make significant power without forced induction. That streetable/pump gas/displacement issue again. I don't have a lot of experience with the 20v ( always stuck to 10 valves and the 80 chassis, mostly UrQs but a 4kq here and there) but given all the variables, I would think pulling a normally aspirated 20v and replacing it with a 20v turbo (fairly common in the 1991...corrected typo!....+5kQt and 200) would be easier than adapting a turbo to the atmospheric pressure limited 20v. Frankly, I was not wanting for power just blowing about 14psi through a mostly stock 10v (only real mod was a "cheater" cam and a little better flowing exhaust)... but I was using a K24 turbo for better throttle reponse (which worked awesome on the street) but with the tiny UrQ intercooler, on the track the system would be heat saturated by the 2nd lap and I'd have no power at all... that little turbo needed a huge intercooler... or I needed a way to reduct throttle lag on the stock K26. Bill

Oh... i'm not going to go n/a on any of these things. From i think something you may have posted in my old thread, you pointed out that the 7A was screaming for a turbo, or whatever the motor was that was in the 90 Quattro 20v. I'm assuming just boosting that motor should put out some pretty impressive numbers?

What would make turbo'ing the existing n/a 20v harder than swapping the entire motor for the turbo version?

Dropping the compression ratio to the point you can boost 1+ atm on pump gas without detonation would be the first issue... with such a small displacement you need tons of boost to make high power.

wcelliot wrote: Dropping the compression ratio to the point you can boost 1+ atm on pump gas without detonation would be the first issue... with such a small displacement you need tons of boost to make high power.

Oh... i see. I didn't realize the stock compression was that high. Wow.

10.3:1. Interesting. Does the 10v block match up to the 20v head?

Audiworld is a dead zone now, go to quattroworld.com and motorgeek.com for all the swap info you could possibly want. Just be warned up front, the 5 cylinder Audi's are addicting and can be as expensive as the finest street pharmacueticals when you're trying to crank out the power. And the fact that most every old school Audi-head is looking fior the same 20v swap donor as you which helps to keep the demand up and supply low...$$$$$$ myself included.

Not an expert here, but I understand the head swap isn't practical... can't tell you why though...

5 cylinder bottom ends are pretty bulletproof. Even the later n/a 10v engines had oil squirters for the piston skirts. Provided you control the detonation, they should handle most anything you throw at them. Frank & Dan Sprongl are gurus on these cars and may be a source of information for you. The 5 cylinder-ness makes for some oddities...dyno tuning is a bit weird because many machines can't cope with odd firing orders, and getting an aftermarket tach is sort of a custom build (but do-able). Audi parts are expensive; the more modern, the more costly they are. You've got to really be a dedicated Audihead to want to finance a project like this. It's much easier to go just as fast with other brands, and a whole lot less expensive. I love the cars, but they just don't make economic sense to me anymore.

In reply to 93celicaGT2:

Visit yourself to motorgeek.com. Very five cylinder friendly forum.

As a bonus (for you), if it's before 1992 or so, ALL all wheel drive Audis were manual transmission. The first automatic quattro was the V8.

The trans in the 80/90/CQ sucks rocks, though, it's only good to about 450hp. You can trip over 400hp with the 20v engine. Upgrade the rods and pistons, and your limit becomes how large of a turbo you can shove under the hood. So, you need to look at a 4000 quattro, or plan on a transmission upgrade.

Also, if you get a car that was factory 20v (late 90, all CQ), the cylinder heads are the same casting as the turbo engines, just the manifolding and pistons are different. Lots of people just stack head gaskets on the N/A 20v and make big power, too.

wcelliot wrote: Not an expert here, but I understand the head swap isn't practical... can't tell you why though...

I couldn't, either. A lot of people do it.

In fact, what is turning into a fairly popular thing is a 20v head (any 20v head) on a late 2.3l 10v. The chambers in the 20v head are larger than the 10v head so compression will drop into a very turbo-friendly range.

One person even stuck a 20v head on a 10vt block. He severely decked the block, and then trimmed the pistons, to get compression UP TO 7:1. But, he gets the strongest factory bottom end Audi ever made, and 20v airflow.

Knurled wrote: In reply to 93celicaGT2: Visit yourself to motorgeek.com. Very five cylinder friendly forum. As a bonus (for you), if it's before 1992 or so, ALL all wheel drive Audis were manual transmission. The first automatic quattro was the V8. The trans in the 80/90/CQ sucks rocks, though, it's only good to about 450hp. You can trip over 400hp with the 20v engine. Upgrade the rods and pistons, and your limit becomes how large of a turbo you can shove under the hood. So, you need to look at a 4000 quattro, or plan on a transmission upgrade. Also, if you get a car that was factory 20v (late 90, all CQ), the cylinder heads are the same casting as the turbo engines, just the manifolding and pistons are different. Lots of people just stack head gaskets on the N/A 20v and make big power, too.

Beat me to it... i was just about to ask about the head gasket trick.

It is pretty funny to hear someone say that an AWD transmission sucks beacause it only handles 450hp.

Any idea what i could expect out of an n/a motor with a nice thick gasket?

I'm thinking it sounds easier just to do that, and build a spare block in the meantime as backup. Just boost the n/a motor with a gigantic turbo and have fun.

I'm not looking to really do any competition with this thing. Just make it look nice, and have stupid power. That's about it. Completely purpose-less car.

I am a 10v person. We can't flow enough air to hurt the engines :)

The largest issue I see with the 20v engines is the fact that that most of them use distributors. Distributor cross-fire is a big problem over about 400hp. Results in a do it yourself piston kit. (Glue the pieces together and you have pistons) The S4/S6 had coil on plug, and a lot of people use a good standalone like 034EFI. It doesn't hurt that motorgeek is 034 Motorsport's forum, but there are a few 'squirters there too and we're awaiting MS3's native 5 cylinder capability.

The 80/90/CQ have the 01A transmission. People have run over 600hp with it and lived, as long as you don't break traction under power with grippy tires. If you want to bounce curbs at high power levels you need an 01E, which looks like an updated version of the 016 that was in all of the early quattro cars.

Knurled wrote: I am a 10v person. We can't flow enough air to hurt the engines :) The largest issue I see with the 20v engines is the fact that that most of them use distributors. Distributor cross-fire is a big problem over about 400hp. Results in a do it yourself piston kit. (Glue the pieces together and you have pistons) The S4/S6 had coil on plug, and a lot of people use a good standalone like 034EFI. It doesn't hurt that motorgeek is 034 Motorsport's forum, but there are a few 'squirters there too and we're awaiting MS3's native 5 cylinder capability. The 80/90/CQ have the 01A transmission. People have run over 600hp with it and lived, as long as you don't break traction under power with grippy tires. If you want to bounce curbs at high power levels you need an 01E, which looks like an updated version of the 016 that was in all of the early quattro cars.

Gotcha... all great info. I think i'll head over to Motorgeek and see what the deal is, too.

Sounds like i'll be searching for a 90 Quattro and then piece it together from there.

Very confidence boosting that major ignition issues don't happen til 400hp.

Oh... and just because it seems to be real confusing what came to the US with what motors, and whatnot... Any way you could tell me which models and years i'm looking for to get a 20v, whether that be turbo or n/a?

Sorry... i don't normally require spoon-feeding, but i just saw an ad for what appeared to be a 94 90 Quattro, but the seller claims it came with a 5 cylinder, and i thought we only got that 2.8litre V6 past 93?

IIRC, the only two years 20vs were sold in the US were 1990 and 1991. Not counting the S-cars, of course. 20v.org has some good info on the cars from those two years.

A 1994 90 would definitely NOT be a five-cylinder. That would be a B4 chassis, the B3 was the last small-chassis car to get a five.

You can't get that sort of power with a dist system. Plan on spending lots of money to get there. The 10V turbo with 15 psi is good for 250, and believe me it is fun. The motor is completely stock. A NA 20V makes good power but only on the top end of the tach. Below 3000 it is doggy. There was a quantum sunchro in ohio pretty cheap. It had a 10 VT and a 20VT spare motor. Look on VW vortex.

porschenut wrote: You can't get that sort of power with a dist system. Plan on spending lots of money to get there. The 10V turbo with 15 psi is good for 250, and believe me it is fun. The motor is completely stock. A NA 20V makes good power but only on the top end of the tach. Below 3000 it is doggy. There was a quantum sunchro in ohio pretty cheap. It had a 10 VT and a 20VT spare motor. Look on VW vortex.

Well, eventually i'd be looking at upgraded/updated ignition, a standalone, huge turbo, garden hose injectors, and a nice strong engine. This probably won't be an overnight build or anything, not really my style. My Celica is a good example of that.

I don't think i'd be happy with 250hp. I already have that and much more in one car, and will likely have that and more in another car whenever i get off my butt and finish the Celica.

I'm looking for absolutely stupid power in a "different" car, and the ability to put it to the ground. I've already got two of the three ingredients in the MX6, but can't put it down to save my life.

The quantum synchro would DEFINITELY be different, and i could definitely get behind one of those. Thanks for the tip!

Why not just do the 4cyl 20v swap? You can get almost as much power (AEB will hold a lot in stock form) and they're much more plentiful then the turbo 5cyl 20v motors.