Audi takes a lesson from Microsoft

here's a picture of the FRS EPS- and interesting to me, at least, it's not on the rack, but on the column, just under the dash. Pretty nice. I see no fluid there. For what I do, I really like that style.

On the page I found that, the picture above it shows the rack, which it totally manual, with nothing going in and out, other than the steering column.

Javelin wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote: Maybe they want to distinguish direct-drive electric from electro-hydraulic (although i don't think any production cars use it). Or they're working on turning the wheels directly with magnetic fields.

This. BMW uses totally electric steering on most of it's cars now. That's an electric motor with a gear that spins a jackscrew that turns the wheels. It's slow to react, provides less steering feel than a 1970's American Land Yacht (surprise surprise, because it uses a recirculating ball!), and generally sucks in every application. Electro-hydraulic is a "normal" rack & pinion rack powered by hydraulic fluid except the pump is powered by an electric motor instead of an engine-driven accessory. These can be tuned like any normal power steering from full-on Buick float to Miata precision.

I'm not so sure about the 100% electric on the BMW, according to their own information (http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/technology/technology_guide/articles/mm_active_steering.html):

Active Steering does not interrupt the direct connection between steering wheel and front wheels, so that even in the unlikely event of a complete failure of the electronic systems, the BMW remains completely controllable at all times. This is because at the first sign of any problems, an adaptation mechanism blocks the Active Steering immediately using a pivot so that the driver is permanenty in control of the situation.

So the BMW Active Steering is just another version of EPAS. No hydraulics.

alfadriver wrote: Moving onto the FRS- this suspension feature list http://www.scion.com/cars/FR-S/specs/#category=suspension shows that the FRS system uses the aforementioned EPS system. Based on that, I would say that the FRS uses the EPS or otherwise known as EPAS system and is not hydralic.

Looks like the FR-S uses an electric assist motor connected to a manual rack & pinion. This is apparently the only car currently for sale that does it that way. Sounds like this a good setup:

The motor is on the column, behind the wheel:

For reference, this is the BMW system:

Notice that the electric motor is directly on the rack. It operates on the recirculating ball/jackscrew assembly that actually turns the wheels. This is what all the other mags/outlets are claiming is so horrible.

This is what I've been saying is new and just came out. It's the first EPS system that can be operated without a mechanical linkage.

I thought the redline's electric steering had decent feedback and feel.......I didn't like GM berkeleying me over when it failed(see cobalt/G5 steering recall) that wasn't extended to the Saturns yet when mine failed. E36 M3ty business practices there.

Also, the toyobaru appears to have the same setup that GM used on the cobalt, ion, and g5.....the electric motor was under the dash on the back of the column

In reply to Javelin:

Of that, what makes it 100% electric on the BMW? There's a real, mechanical steering input, so it's not 100% electric.

There's no reason why Toyota's system can't do the same thing. Just as any other EPAS system. (Or any ABS system, as well....)

The issue more is how BMW makes it work, as opposed to the technology. Like many other technologies- just because BMW sucks at it does not make the technology bad.

Javelin wrote: Looks like the FR-S uses an electric assist motor connected to a manual rack & pinion. This is apparently the only car currently for sale that does it that way. Sounds like this a good setup:

Depends on how you look at it.

EPAS with a rack & pinion? No- there are others out there. On more plebian cars.

EPAS separated from the rack? Probably, thanks to the packaging of an H4 engine. I personally like the separation, but for other reasons.

And for reference, most EPAS systems do use a regular hydraulic rack, including most Nissans. Like this:

And here's a Dodge Charger rack and pump setup:

And here's a Mazda3 front end setup, complete with MacPherson struts. Mazda keeps the hydraulic system very small:

So it looks like I got really confused. EPAS w/ hydraulics is very common in a lot of cars. The first generation of EPS simply used an electric motor, usually on the column, as the assist. The new ES that has everyone in a tizzy is the direct-acting electric motor, like in the 2013 BMW 5-series. Here's the three systems left-to-right:

Apologies for the confusion.

Funny enough the first ever direct-drive EPS systems used the same setup as the Toyobaru and the feel was horrible.

EHPS setups were only ever used to get variable and engine-independent PS boost without the horrible feel, the downside being greater-than-ever complexity, and lower efficiency than direct-drive EPS .

In reply to alfadriver:

The BMW has a steering arm input, but doesn't need it. The electric motor directly on the rack can be functioned by wires alone, like an electronic throttle. If the motor fails in that setup, however, the steering would simply stop working. The NHSTA just allowed Mercedes to sell those here as long as they kept the linkage in the car with an emergency clutch that would engage if the electric motor failed.

In the Prius and Cobalt/Ion systems, the linkage is permanent and does the actual turning of the rack input. If the electric motor fails, it's just like having a hydraulic PS pump go out. It gets harder to steer, but it's all still there.

Huh I thought EHPS was just a gearhead invention, didn't know regular production cars came with it.

Javelin wrote:

Oh I feel sorry for anyone who has to work on that...

yamaha wrote: Also, the toyobaru appears to have the same setup that GM used on the cobalt, ion, and g5.....the electric motor was under the dash on the back of the column

In general yes, but according to the Frisbee marketing, it's the first one to do it with an all-manual rack & pinion, whatever that means. I guess they tuned the car to use the manual rack like an old-school sports car and then used the electric assist for just low-speed/parking lot duties? Maybe it doesn't assist all the time? I dunno, I'm easily confused by PR stuff.

Javelin wrote: In reply to alfadriver: The BMW has a steering arm input, but doesn't need it. The electric motor directly on the rack can be functioned by wires alone, like an electronic throttle. If the motor fails in that setup, however, the steering would simply stop working. The NHSTA just allowed Mercedes to sell those here as long as they kept the linkage in the car with an emergency clutch that would engage if the electric motor failed. In the Prius and Cobalt/Ion systems, the linkage is permanent and does the actual turning of the rack input. If the electric motor fails, it's just like having a hydraulic PS pump go out. It gets harder to steer, but it's all still there.

Technically, no power steering system needs a direct input, and all of them can over take the system. None of them do, but just because BMW takes charge does not mean nobody else can. ABS is the same way- it can take over the braking system, and many modern set ups do (crash avoidance).

I would not put BMW's system as equal to ETC. Maybe some of the ETC systems that were around back in 1993, which were more a cable assist set up.

GameboyRMH wrote: Funny enough the first ever direct-drive EPS systems used the same setup as the Toyobaru and the feel was horrible.

According to everything I just read, the first EPS sytems (like the Prius and now the Toyabaru) are not direct-drive. The new BMW system is the first direct-drive setup.

That means in "normal" EPS, the steering wheel/shaft is actually inputting the rack directly, the electric motor just helps out (step-up gears I'd assume?). The BMW system the wheel/shaft can be completely disconnected from the rack at times.

I have no idea why they would do that though, especially when the divorced EPS systems (like the Frisbee) seem to be working so well now. The NHSTA has also already made it clear they will never allow a linkage-less car in the US as well, so why even spend the money on it?

Javelin wrote:

yamaha wrote: Also, the toyobaru appears to have the same setup that GM used on the cobalt, ion, and g5.....the electric motor was under the dash on the back of the column

In general yes, but according to the Frisbee marketing, it's the first one to do it with an all-manual rack & pinion, whatever that means. I guess they tuned the car to use the manual rack like an old-school sports car and then used the electric assist for just low-speed/parking lot duties? Maybe it doesn't assist all the time? I dunno, I'm easily confused by PR stuff.

Didn't they also claim to have the first H motor or something like that?

The only first I can see in that motor is the first horizonally opposed 4 that uses direct injection. Other than that, it's been done before.

Lots of truths are stretched on that car, for some reason. As far as I can tell, they should just advertise- 'come and drive it'. Maybe cost a lot test drive gas, but it should be the most effective way to sell the FRS.

In reply to alfadriver:

Very, very true. I forgot about those ridiculous commercials/claims.

Javelin wrote: According to everything I just read, the first EPS sytems (like the Prius and now the Toyabaru) are *not* direct-drive. The new BMW system is the first direct-drive setup.

What makes it more direct drive? Just because the electric motor isn't attached to the column in any way?

Mounting it high in the column = mounting it on the rack in the column = mounting it off to the side on the rack. It's a motor, it moves the rack just like every other system.

Again, the uniqueness is that BMW takes over apparently more than everyone else does. But that doesn't make it that different.

alfadriver wrote:

Javelin wrote: According to everything I just read, the first EPS sytems (like the Prius and now the Toyabaru) are *not* direct-drive. The new BMW system is the first direct-drive setup.

What makes it more direct drive? Just because the electric motor isn't attached to the column in any way? Mounting it high in the column = mounting it on the rack in the column = mounting it off to the side on the rack. It's a motor, it moves the rack just like every other system. Again, the uniqueness is that BMW takes over apparently more than everyone else does. But that doesn't make it *that* different.

Again man, the BMW doesn't require the steering shaft at all. The shaft actually disconnects from the rack input. The electric motor inside has a belt that turns the jackscrew. It is unlike every other EPS out there. I will try and find you an internal picture.

Sultan wrote:

JoeyM wrote:

Sultan wrote:

SlickDizzy wrote:

Sultan wrote: I don't get the MS connection

Touting your deficiencies as "features."

I still don't get it

What microsoft said How the rest of the world felt

woe that is an old reference!

Yeah, it is.
The point remains, they used to piss people off, and market those annoyances as though they were a good thing.

The internet still has a lot of microsoft hatred, even though it is starting to become less appropriate/well founded.

I remember back when infosec guys used to complain about Microsoft being unresponsive to security issues, and normal users didn't care. Now microsoft is getting fairly decent marks for being responsive, and normal users are whining about how often they have updates.

Funny world.

December 2012 C&D has the article:

Are We Losing Touch? A Comprehensive Comparison Test of Electric and Hydraulic Steering Assist More carmakers are switching to electric steering assist in pursuit of mpg.

Javelin wrote: Again man, the BMW doesn't *require* the steering shaft at all. The shaft actually disconnects from the rack input. The electric motor inside has a belt that turns the jackscrew. It is unlike every other EPS out there. I will try and find you an internal picture.

Again, man, NO power steering system require a mechanical steering shaft. There are fully hydralic steering systems out there that have no connection from the steeting wheel to the tires other than fluid.

I understand that it works directly on the jack screw. But that's no different than ANY OTHER SYSTEM. It's matter of where the motor is. Any system can take over just like that does.

Again, man, it's how BMW uses it that makes it "objectonable".

In reply to alfadriver:

Just go read the damn article.

Javelin wrote:

yamaha wrote: Also, the toyobaru appears to have the same setup that GM used on the cobalt, ion, and g5.....the electric motor was under the dash on the back of the column

In general yes, but according to the Frisbee marketing, it's the first one to do it with an all-manual rack & pinion, whatever that means. I guess they tuned the car to use the manual rack like an old-school sports car and then used the electric assist for just low-speed/parking lot duties? Maybe it doesn't assist all the time? I dunno, I'm easily confused by PR stuff.

The saturn dimenished the assist at speed......hell, at 150+ it was like trying to move a brick wall by hand. I'll bet you its almost the same setup......wouldn't be the first time toyota and GM worked together. Also note, the saturn didn't have provisions for adding PS fluid, so it was either a manual rack or a sealed unit

Want to get really tricky, I wonder who used VAPS(variable assist power steering) first....