Autocross: BRZ/FRS vs. S2000

clutchsmoke wrote: I pick S2000 because of styling, cockpit, higher stock power, and better engine. The lump in the Frisbee just doesn't do it for me. And the Frisbee is marginally more practical than an S2000. Have you seen the trunks on both cars? The opening is hilariously small on the Frisbee.

Trunks for both can fit a hockey bag with no rearranging, just drop it in and go. Frisbee you can fit the hockey sticks too. So in that argument, I think you've lost your point.

(Seriously, what more room do you need for the opening? It isn't like a VW Cabrio. I could fit a dreadnaught guitar case in the FRS with no issue, and the hockey bag--what are you using that is bigger htan that?)

mtn wrote:

clutchsmoke wrote: I pick S2000 because of styling, cockpit, higher stock power, and better engine. The lump in the Frisbee just doesn't do it for me. And the Frisbee is marginally more practical than an S2000. Have you seen the trunks on both cars? The opening is hilariously small on the Frisbee.

Trunks for both can fit a hockey bag with no rearranging, just drop it in and go. Frisbee you can fit the hockey sticks too. So in that argument, I think you've lost your point. (Seriously, what more room do you need for the opening? It isn't like a VW Cabrio. I could fit a dreadnaught guitar case in the FRS with no issue, and the hockey bag--what are you using that is bigger htan that?)

That's for your intended use and thus the frisbee wins for you. I need to occasionally transport oddly sized boxes for work (typically taller than wide, need to remain vertical) and surprisingly the S2K would work better for me.

We're arguing the practicality of sports cars which typically they are not. For most people the frisbee is more practical than the S2K.

In other news the frisbee has a gigantic trunk compared to the GTO (almost every car does actually).

I would go with a BRZ/FRS over an S2000, but I've ridden in a BRZ but not a S2000 yet. I haven't driven either yet.

I've driven both in anger and would spend my own money on an S2K

Driven5 wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: Emilio of 949Racing fame has gone on record saying that mod for mod, the Frisbee is pretty much untouchable in Nasa TT competition, including the S2000. It's faster.

I'd be curious to see where that statement was made, because there is a big difference between "mod for mod" and "modified equally to the fullest extent of the class rules". One implies they are equivalent each and every step of the way, while the other implies they do not reach parity until a certain specific combimation of mods has been reached. I have a feeling the internet lore being spread is the former, while reality is the later.

http://www.miataturbo.net/insert-bs-here-4/want-do-not-want-subaru-brz-sti-61703/page12/#post1007978

http://www.miataturbo.net/insert-bs-here-4/want-do-not-want-subaru-brz-sti-61703/page13/#post1008448

Driven both. I would pick the brfrs-86 for a dual duty car, mainly because it has more space inside. The S would be the pick for a dedicated toy.

For the price of a FRS, I'd be looking hard at used Cayman. And of course, Lotus Elise's often go for similar money as well.

I own an FRS and was looking at an S2K at the same time when purchasing. I've driven every generation of S2000 in anger at autox. Also love verts. Or "very" as another thread had!

The FRS (in my region) I could buy brand new for the same price as an S2K that I might be happy (very difficult to find a clean white one without mods/horrors/gremlins/rebuilt...)

The S2K has the much sweeter driveline. My biggest gripe with the FRS is the sound of the motor, sounds grainy. While the FRS/BRZ shifter is very, very good... the S2000 is the best I have used. I have driven many h-patterns, nothing beats the Honda. The FA20 in the toyobaru has a torque dip that is annoying right in the middle of the rpm range (3.5k) whereas the honda has the sweet vtec kick.

They both are very fun to drive, with eager turn in. The S2000 has the better turn in but it is a little less friendly and more difficult to maintain slip angle in. The toyobaru is very approachable in this front. You can easily do an entire autox course sideways (not recommended ;))

The cockpit is superior in the toyobaru for driving duty, the best in this segment actually. The sitting position is excellent and better than the s2k, the wheel is adjustable (not in the s2k). I would describe it as you sit in the toyobaru whereas you sit on the S2K. Also while the S2000 has precise steering it does NOT give a lot of feedback, very numb. The FRS on the other hand has nice weighty steering, an excellent wheel and gives plenty of feedback. Very porshe-esque albeit on a budget.

For track work, although you didn't ask I would take the toyobaru every time. It has better aerodynamics, is more stable and performs much better than anyone would expect. The S2K will need a wing and a rollbar to be approachable at 10/10ths on higher speed tracks.

The brakes are slightly better on the FRS and there is an excellent AP Racing option that saves 10 lb per corner. I also believe the FRS has the potential to take weight out easier while maintaining some civility over the S2K. Pretty easy to get it into the 25XXlb range as most STX guys are I believe.

The aftermarket for this car exploded like nothing else I have seen in the last decade. The car handles boost very well and you have many options for adding power, aero, loosing weight and aesthetics on a relatively new car. Also I believe the motor has more potential to make power N/A than the F22 (not net power but delta/$). I believe the F22 the best bang for buck is test pipe and a tune. On the FA20 headers and a tune eliminate the torque dip and can pick up nearly 50 lb/ft midrange. Imagine this car less 150 lb and with an extra 30-50 hp, which is very achievable. If you have e85 just a tune can let you jump from 170 to 200whp on an otherwise bone stock car.

I love, love roadsters and the look of the S2k but honestly the aesthetics on the toyobaru rub me a little better. That window line and profile is very similar to the new, achingly gorgeous F Type Coupe. But this is opinion. I get plenty of compliments and most people (non car guys) assume the car is either much more expensive and/or packing more heat than it actually is.

To me, this car is a poor man's cayman. Since new/used is a can of worms that I find pointless, I think this is the best NEW DD-capable driver's car you can buy under 50k. The cayman being the best but at a higher price point. The s2k is more like a gt3: more fun to flog around and more special but for year round DD duty too compromised. So I got the better car for the 98% of the time that it will be used as a DD.

In reply to rwdsport:

Yeah, I agree with pretty much everything you said. The twin just has the technology advantage. The S2000 is an amazing car, but its running on 10 year old technology, whereas the BRZ/FRZ has all the latest quirks and tricks pre-designed in. I believe the twin runs struts in the rear, where the S2000 runs double wishbones (said to be superior in design), yet with the same tires I wouldn't be surprised if the twin pulls better Gs.

Now, if Honda gets their act together and comes up with a modern S2000, all bets are off! Heres to dreaming :D

In reply to Swank Force One:

Thanks! I didn't expect those to be his exact words, but there they are. Taken in context, I personally would still not be willing to apply his comments outside of racing use on higher speed road courses and specifically in regards to the modifications used in maximizing the NASA racing points classifications. However, I do believe the comments from CSG Mike in the following thread offer a far more comprehensive and universally applicable evaluation.

See post #13.

Not really a fan of convertibles at all, but was thinking of getting an NC miata as a daily driver... (would have taken out everything related to the convertible top and permanently replaced with a proper 4-point rollbar and hardtop, in addition to needed to have a racing seat installed so I could fit comfortably in it being 6'2"). But then the FRS came along, a great looking sportscar with a FIXED ROOF that I fit well in STOCK without basically having to redo the whole interior...and the Miata idea was instantly dropped with zero second thought given. Having had the FRS for 2 years and nearly 24k miles I will say that bone stock it is a little wanting in engine responsiveness (but not overall power level...that is fine!). With a few little tweaks it's better (still not the B Series Honda motor responsiveness that I loved from previous Integra's) and the more you drive the car the more you fall in love with its chassis.

Best thing I've done to it is actually going DOWN in tire size from the stock 215/45-17 to a Max Performance tire (Kumho Ecsta Sport LE) in 205/45-17 size on a lightweight 17x7.5 wheel. The reduced diameter and max wheel width recommended for the tire size makes all the difference in the chassis responsiveness - car is phenomenally agile and a hoot to drive, and in the wet it's just absolutely sublime (way more confident of it's cornering ability in the wet than my brother's '05 Subaru Impreza RS.) If I were to autocross it I'd choose the stickiest 205/45-17 tire on the lightest 17x7.5" wheel that is affordable...low speed agility is very impressive. High speed agility and stability are pretty nice too - tightening radius turns are basically a walk in the park at triple digit speeds...

I just wish the driving position was better - the stock seat has just not worked out that great for me. I need the seat to be 2" lower and have better ergonomics and a better driving position. Pretty much all stock cars are lacking here. I was just hoping the stock seats in the FRS would be liveable for me, but after 2 years they've proven to not really be. And of course since the stock seats are pretty low in the car to begin with, options for going lower with better ergonomics are extremely slim and costly for reclineable seats, basically there are only 2 options: custom mount Recaro Sportster CS or Bride Stradia II (both roughly $1.5k for the basic level/trim seat.)

Thanks for all of the replies! I basically was looking at which would be most competitive in their class and easy to live with. And for those that own either, how much fun are they to own. I still have the MINI and 370Z, so it doesn't have to be a do it all type of car, although it may replace the 370. I'm leaning towards a BRZ right now as they can be had fairly cheap new. Our local dealer is discounting them heavily. And any late S2000 I would want is similarly priced with as much as 100k on the clock. I really like S2000's though, so it's a difficult choice.

racerdave600----- sit in both, drive both. I've never found the S2000 comfortable, but you may. (it all depends on body type) Starter buttons also annoy me-- and the S2000 is to blame, as it was the first to offer this gimmick.

You really can't lose---- but I'd go with the FR-S / BRZ, just because I like the driving dynamics, styling and practicality better. (they specifically designed the FR-S / BRZ to fit an extra set of wheels and tires inside--- try that with an S2000)

The top doesn't go down, and there isn't a rush of power at the top end like the Honda though. Both are a barrel of monkeys--- I just like the twin's more accessible limits and frisky chassis.

You know, I've thought about this as well. I've ridden in S2000 only, driven neither, so I need to get some first hand experience. I'm looking for a DD and do enjoy verts so that is a major plus for the S2000. I've really lusted after the S2000 for a long time and only recently been in a position to get one, so that is part of what is driving me. I think the higher overall quality, wonderful engine, and ability to drop the top on the S2000 make it much more of an "eventful" car. I may do some autoX and DEs but I have another car primarily for motorsports.

The FRSBRZ makes sense as a do-it-all kinda car as you have a real roof, can fit more inside including humans, don't need to add a rollbar for open track fun, and you can get a warranty and typical 2014 electronic niceties. It sounds like they really do go faster than they have a right to, and the aftermarket is quite surprising IMO given the low power and lack of turbo. It just seems that the engine doesn't have the greatest character and at the end of the day, throwing boost at a new $25k car seems pretty stupid to me. I want WRX engine in BRZ and WRX engine + 25% moar in the STI and then Subaru will have two cars for which I would just throw money at them!

Also, Mazda should have done the 2.5L stock in the MX5, I just discovered that swap option a few days back and can't understand why they wouldn't have done it themselves. I love me some slower RWD cars, but the acceleration gap between normal cars and low powered lightweight RWD cars seems to be growing with time. A 2.5L PRHT Club would be a pretty cool daily driver vert for a snow climate like this.

turtl631 wrote: Also, Mazda should have done the 2.5L stock in the MX5, I just discovered that swap option a few days back and can't understand why they wouldn't have done it themselves. I love me some slower RWD cars, but the acceleration gap between normal cars and low powered lightweight RWD cars seems to be growing with time. A 2.5L PRHT Club would be a pretty cool daily driver vert for a snow climate like this.

If I had a bit more money saved up, I would go ahead and take my car down to dynotronics for the 2.5 swap right now.

200whp in the NC would be a blast.

racerdave600 wrote: Thanks for all of the replies! I basically was looking at which would be most competitive in their class and easy to live with. And for those that own either, how much fun are they to own. I still have the MINI and 370Z, so it doesn't have to be a do it all type of car, although it may replace the 370. I'm leaning towards a BRZ right now as they can be had fairly cheap new. Our local dealer is discounting them heavily. And any late S2000 I would want is similarly priced with as much as 100k on the clock. I really like S2000's though, so it's a difficult choice.

2 videos for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jImHTWfj8aM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUhLXvxlQR4

nderwater wrote: For the price of a FRS, I'd be looking hard at used Cayman. And of course, Lotus Elise's often go for similar money as well.

My friend bought a used cayman. IMS failure and $10,000 later he's getting a new engine.

Ouch. I've been tempted to go used Boxster/Cayman, but compared to an S2000, routine costs will definitely be higher, and the potential for catastrophic failure is certainly higher. I know the actual risk is pretty low, but still.

Since I started this thread, I thought I would revive it.  I ended up buying a new BRZ in 2015, and have since moved to a Boxster S.  I thought about this thread recently however as I have been thinking about a strictly autocross and track car.  Do either of these still make sense?  BRZ/FRS variants are getting pretty cheap, S2000's have gone the other way for good ones and are getting difficult to find.  Are either still capable of holding their own?  I know the Twins have been outclassed recently but have their own spec class.  Thoughts?

In reply to racerdave600 :

Do tell about your brz to boxster experiences.   

Not street class so much but BRZs have SSC which is moving to better tires for this year and they're still pretty much the car to have for STX. I would think they still have a chance in DS but not many people seem to be running them. There's a proposal out now to move the Performance Pack cars to DS which I would think would help. The S2000 is buried everywhere at this point and as you said prices aren't exactly dropping.

In reply to racerdave600 :

The answer to your question is still Miata.

I find it interesting that new Frisbees and used Caymans seem to have depreciated at the same rate in the last six years.

At least according to the Boxster thread.  I have not shopped Caymans.

In reply to Knurled. :

Boxsters yes, Caymans not so much--which is the reason why my 987 is convertible. 

My post above from 2014 said, "For the price of a FRS, I'd be looking hard at used Cayman." Now that FRSBRZs have depreciated they're a serious bargain for enthusiasts.

In reply to nderwater :

I thought people said in the thread that you could get Caymans for about $12-16k?  That is what frisbees seem to be trading for.