Autocross bumping/pax question

You could call this my yearly rant against the scca rules committee.

Last year I queried the great GRM brain trust on how they classed and awarded events at small regions where many times there are only 1-2 cars per class. A great idea was lump all the street, all the street touring, all the prepared, etc together have a class. I proposed this and it went over like a turd in a punchbowl.

So, yesterday we had our first event. the same crusty old dude does the awards, and I say he's doing them wrong. Got in a big argument with him. So here are two way more specific questions than I asked last year.

question 1. If you bump classes (using the prescribed bump order) do you then award based on raw time or pax time? Is this officially stated anywhere?

question 2. If you are bumping - how many people need to be bumped together? for example if hs gs es ds cs and bs all have 1 entrant, do you combine until you get 2, so hs and gs are together, then Es and DS? then CS and BS? How is the correct way to do this?

Is there any official guidelines from the SCCA on this? it seems like they just throw it into "regions can do what they please" if there's nothing official, is there any docuemnts that show how various regions handle this? I need black and white proof.

SCR solved this by starting a Cookie Class. All times are raw, whoever wins brings the cookies to the next event. I'm pretty sure it's the most fun class at the events.

Bump classes are PAX based.

Our local region looked at putting all single driver classes in a bump class in an attempt to save money on trophies. There was a pretty big pushback and the idea was scrapped. I dunno, it seems silly to me to give a trophy to the only driver in a class, but man there was a lot of butthurt over it.

Regardless of what the rulebook says, regions are still free to do whatever they please at local events. What you would want to look for is that region's supplemental ruleset for the 2016 season, this is where they would outline what they intend to do for bumping classes, creating things like cookie class or street tire mod class, and how the region will award trophies, season points details like how many events you must run to be eligible for a year-end trophy, if you can win a trophy in more than one class per season, stuff like that. None of that stuff is defined by national.

If they published no such document then the dude handing out trophies can toss them to whoever he decides with no consequences.

An example: http://www.phillyscca.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/2014-SCCA-Philadelphia-Region-SOLO-Supplementary-Regulations.pdf

And yes those are two years out of date but current ones exist somewhere. SCCA regions don't always have good website folks.

Your answer could go either way. For bumping classes according to the rulebook only, times would be raw. After all there is absolutely nothing 'official' about PAX except its recent use in Match Tours. Prior to that it has no official place in the SCCA rulebook. For most every region that has created a 'lumped together _____' class, they do use PAX and I assume that is what you are pushing for. I agree it makes sense but there's not going to be any rule saying to do so unless the region wrote it into the supps.

See page 273, ain't nothin' about PAX nowhere. Just bump up and run raw time. Sorry. http://cdn.growassets.net/user_files/scca/downloads/000/010/060/2015-10-26_SCCA_Solo_Rules_book_online_reduced.pdf?1445897037

Spoolpigeon wrote: Bump classes are PAX based. Our local region looked at putting all single driver classes in a bump class in an attempt to save money on trophies. There was a pretty big pushback and the idea was scrapped. I dunno, it seems silly to me to give a trophy to the only driver in a class, but man there was a lot of butthurt over it.

Of course that makes sense, and what I was arguing. But the old timer told me he's been doing this 35 years, they always combine classes and then use raw time.

I said that just means he's been doing it wrong for 35 years.

We don't lump classes. If you are in a class of 1 it's on you to convince someone else to join you (easy enough to offer a co-drive). Now you are a class of two and can get a "trophy" for dodging cones the fastest.

Interestingly enough, I just pulled up the rulebook and can't find where it says to use PAX for bumping. Where do you find that?

I've only run in one region that did bumps. You could only be bumped one class, HS to GS for example, unless you asked to be moved more. No PAX because that sort of math would have caused more problems than it solved. We had 30 ish drivers at each event so the whole thing was really a mishmash of different speeds and fun. Laid back group. Fun guys. Even running with groups of nearly 200 these days I'm seldom really running against people in my class, but rather I'm running against guys who are about as fast as me while we try to get faster and catch up to the really fast guys.
If you're arguing about plastic trophies, you're doing autocross wrong.

PAX was a 4 letter word with one club I ran with, and the most holy with another. As much as I hate getting bumped into a class where I bring a stapler to a knife fight, I also don't need a trophy for showing up at a Montessoricross. I have a very nice jacket I won from a very nice club because I showed up enough times. I have a beat up old rag I wear everywhere because damnit, I won it at the final event after battling all year.

In reply to jstein77:

It doesn't. There is no such rule.

Even the bumping order is only a recommendation and most regions don't follow it. (Imagine the uproar if every single-entry ladies class was bumped up to run with the guys, as is clearly outlined in the rulebook...yeah, that'd go over real well.)

Just to be clear, I support the use of PAX and agree with OP that the more fair way to go is to bump and then run on PAX. But he's not going to find a line to support it anywhere in the national solo rules.

So the crusty old dude was doing it right for 35 years after all.

In our area, for the council events, the rule book says how to bump and what order to do it in. Raw times only.

If you want to win a trophy, find a bigger class, as far as I'm concerned.

For the overall champion, for a while (and they may still do it), a national PAX was used to combine all the cars for an overall champion- that way the champ does not always come from the biggest class.

We offer drivers the choice - either we bump them up a class or two and they are eligible for prizes, or they run unopposed but don't get hardware. Single-driver classes don't get trophies. If there are 2 cars, only the winner gets a trophy. If there are 3 cars, we give winner and first runner-up. If there are 4 or more cars, we give winner and 2 runners-up, but never more than that.

Whenever I autocross I always look through all of the competitors, and pick a few I'd like to beat. (raw time -wise) My car isn't classed competitively, as I didn't build it for autocross--- I built it to enjoy it every day.

Regardless of what class the others are in--- I aim to beat them. This also gives me a chance to look over all of the competitors, talk to them, and have more fun at the event.

I don't care much about the corny plastic trophies. I'd rather beat that RX-8, S2000 or other cars I see that are similar in performance to mine.

It is about fun after all!

jstein77 wrote: So the crusty old dude was doing it right for 35 years after all.

Only in the sense that there are no official rules and each club can make up whatever they want.

I plan to continue to argue that the way he does it is incredibly illogical.

I can fathom letting someone make a choice to run up one class to get with a group and be able to compete in raw time.

However combining multiple classes whether or not the driver wants and awarding on raw time is horrible, surely everyone can see that.

Yesterday we had stu, str, and stf bumped together. So the poor guy in the Scion tC is forever locked in battles with s2000 and worse the awd boost buggies from stu. How can he ever possibly compete?

icaneat50eggs wrote: Yesterday we had stu, str, and stf bumped together. So the poor guy in the Scion tC is forever locked in battles with s2000 and worse the awd boost buggies from stu. How can he ever possibly compete?

That's stupid. I agree. Those classes are wildly different. But if you've got region management (see: crusty old dude and his friends) that don't like PAX, all you can do is recruit more people to run in your class, volunteer and get elected to the leadership and change things, or just worry about beating other STF cars. If STF dude is 1 of 1 in STF or 5 of 6 in ST-lump, either way the trophy means nothing. But when he manages to place 3 of 6 in that ST class he oughta be damn proud. Aim for that.

You'll probably get a better reception by not being 'that guy' at the events. Do the calculations after the event and post them on the FB page for the group, assuming there is one. If there isn't make one. Go to the committee meetings and state your case. Hang out with the STF guy and make sure he knows what PAX is and how to see where he stacks up on PAX.
Autocross at the local level is HIGHLY political and you're likely to be in a honey vs. vinegar situation here.

well, first off it's a Scion tC. It's not going to win in STF if ANYONE shows up. So he pretty much picked the wrong slow car in general. lol

I got tired of being a single or 2 car class and bumped myself to our "Pro" class. Our local region created it to complement the Novice class. Basically, if you're running the Pro (X) class it's your responsibility to help and give newbs rides as needed. It works well and everyone running it goes off PAX. So we have Fmod, STF, FStreet and BMod all competing on PAX against each other. I got my ass beat last year and it felt better than the last 2 participation year end trophies for STF.

The other option is to switch/build to a more popular class. I got a little tired of 1 or 2 car STX classes, or the almost inevitable bump, so I bought "the answer" and run in ES, where there's always plenty of competition. While running the SE-R(STX), I had both negative and positive experience with "class bumps". It just depended on where I was bumped and who else was running. Getting thrown in with EVO's/STI's was almost universally frustrating. Being down 200whp and 2 drive wheels is insurmountable in most cases. On the other hand, one of the best events I ever had was getting tossed into SM with a CTS-V. It was a tight course that suited my car a little better and I was ALMOST able to steal the win. Ended up losing to a friend by a tenth of a second. One of the best days autocrossing I've ever had. On the whole, however, class bumping was usually a negative experience for me.

In the end, buying/building into a popular class ended up being the right choice for me. If you can't do that, try racing with some different clubs until you find one where your chosen class is better attended.

this isn't for me at all. My Miata died last fall and I haven't replaced it. I'm trying to grow the club. My frustration is that there are a lot of new guys that come out, and see how the classes get bumped and realize there is no way they will ever be competitive with there car. Some people are fine with the fun, but some want to compete.

My biggest issue is last year we transitioned from the "old guard" who had let the club die (no events in 2+ years) to a bunch of new guys that are excited. Of course at first we had to rely on the old guys since we didn't know much and needed an official safety steward, etc. Now I'm the one who designs the courses, Me and 2 other young ( I love that I'm in that category here!) guys are out there before dawn setting cones. The only thing the old guy (and there's only one of em) does now is take forever to look at the results on the computer, take 20 minutes hand copy them down so he can do his magic voodoo of class combination.

How about BumPAX? (all ST cars compete together in one "class" but are ranked in their class based on the car prep pax (STF Civic runs their pax time against STU Sti pax time)... "ST" first index time wins the "class" still free to compete for overall index.

(I love math and have no problem doing/calculating this, some other regions/persons may not)

icaneat50eggs wrote: this isn't for me at all. My Miata died last fall and I haven't replaced it. I'm trying to grow the club. My frustration is that there are a lot of new guys that come out, and see how the classes get bumped and realize there is no way they will ever be competitive with there car. Some people are fine with the fun, but some want to compete. My biggest issue is last year we transitioned from the "old guard" who had let the club die (no events in 2+ years) to a bunch of new guys that are excited. Of course at first we had to rely on the old guys since we didn't know much and needed an official safety steward, etc. Now I'm the one who designs the courses, Me and 2 other young ( I love that I'm in that category here!) guys are out there before dawn setting cones. The only thing the old guy (and there's only one of em) does now is take forever to look at the results on the computer, take 20 minutes hand copy them down so he can do his magic voodoo of class combination.

Until you can get your E36 M3 together and must use the old guard to figure out how to run things- do it their way. You've made the first step- which is to volunteer. The next step is everyone taking a big step up in responsibility. Once YOU are the one running the show, you get to make the rules.

But until then, you are at the mercy of whoever is doing the work for you.

It might make sense to try to talk to the old guy (or bring him a petition or get a group of people or...something) and get the region to stop bumping, but also no trophy for winning a class of one. That is a lot easier on new guys (most people can get the concept of not being awarded if you didn't beat anyone) and will probably be easier to talk 'old dude' into rather than using that newfangled pax number math wizardry that he probably dislikes. Aim for change he is not resistant to, if possible.

It sounds like right now it is not even clearly stated what the conditions for bumping are, if he is working it out by hand after the event. That means people think they won something and then get told they didn't. That'll turn people off a whole lot more than a global statement that position 1 of 1 or 2 of 2 gets no trophy.

It seems in Chicago/Milwaykee/INR/Indy we have no problem with throwing everyone into one class and using Pax. In Chicago, Milwaukee, and TSSCC everyone with fewer than 3 cars in their class gets thrown into "Open Combined" which is determined by PAX. I actually don't mind it because it means there are more trophy positions. Chicago and TSSCC also run a "T" class - a pax class for SP, SM, Prepared, and Mod cars running on 200TW tires. TSSCC and Milwaukeee also run a Pro class, which is also a Pax class.

Maybe it's because PAX was invented up here.

We are doing all the work. We need to get the trophies from old mans possession and then do what we want.