Autocross Crashes.

racerfink said:

I like how no one has even given one thought to a stuck throttle...

Haven't driven a car that couldn't slow down in a reasonable distance at WOT, especially with the kind of adrenaline one might have on tap in such a situation.

racerfink said:

I like how no one has even given one thought to a stuck throttle...

Because the odds are vanishingly small. One in a million might be a stuck throttle and the other 999,999 are just operator error. 

My local SCCA runs autocross at a stadium parking lot. The surface can get interesting, but the main concern is that there are large, grassy medians that run right through the middle, as well as light poles, dumpsters, and huge ash barrels made of concrete. The course designers do a really good job keeping those items on the "inside" of the turns, but even still, things can happen. I personally was almost hit while working, even though I was standing well on the inside of a corner. It was wet, with some big deep puddles, and the car (a BR-Z, for reference) got sideways coming out of the slalom, and even though he was hard on the brakes, his car just went right in my direction. 5 feet further to his left, he would have been taking home a light pole, too.

But then there are people who just  probably shouldn't be autocrossing or doing anything motorsport related. My last time out, someone just stayed in it after the finish, and luckily the curb stopped her from going through the club's trailer. By the time she started braking, she had about 20 feet of braking zone to stop from about 50mph. She just wasn't paying attention... and probably totaled a newish (2015 or so) WRX because of it.

I've watched plenty of cars hit the wall at the drag strip, too. It's just part of motorsports that is unavoidable.

Byrneon27 said:

autocross as a whole could be "fixed" if more people grabbed a beer and put thought into the real importance of driving around cones in a parking lot for fun. 

I usually try to drink before I race too. Seems to help a lot.

Almost doesn’t matter how safe you make it someone always seems to get lost out on course or is overly aggressive. 

I’ve seen a relatively novice, first season, speeding across the parking lot in the middle of the course when he lost track of where he was.

Sometimes it’s scary, I’ve only been around one accident and the course design was somewhat to blame.  Decreasing length slalom at the end of the course where it became fastest to be slightly out of control through the finish line and one of the many cars that spun hit a light pole. 

Only seen two or three minor accidents, one person smacked a chainlink fence, another smashed a curb so hard he broke a wheel (a large Zolder-style race track curb), and I once saw an Opel Corsa plow off course and catch a ton of air but no damage was done.

I've almost hit things twice, both due to the course running very close to obstacles, I once almost plowed into a stack of tractor tires and another time I hit silt and almost slid into a concrete barrier.

With the speeds and grip that modern cars and tires can achieve I think that many auto-x courses are to fast! If your hitting 3rd gear that's way to fast!

Over the years, and I did my first auto-x in 1975, I have seen a few crashes. I've also hears of others at events I didn't attend.

None involved any injuries but the cars all suffered.  I myself did hit a curb on a street course, I've seen two cars flip when they both got sideways and the tire grip overcame the cars center of gravity. I saw a car hit a tree and even one that got on some grass and the driver couldn't stop or slow enough and hit another competitors car. All of these took place at what I considered reasonable speeds for an auto-x. I can't imagine what would happen with todays cars and the higher speeds?

My s2000 got stuffed by my (former) codriver. E36 M3 happens. The course was built within the safety regs, just a bad spin at a decent pace and the car slid a very long way. 

Saw an e36 lightweight go on its side when it slid off course into the mud.

Saw an FD RX7 hop a curb and go down an embankment. 

Saw a Miata get the throttle stuck and jump the same curb as the RX7.

Saw an FRS spin through the finish lights and slide a ridiculously long distance and smack a curb. 

You know the saying. If you make it idiot proof they will build a better idiot. 

I've done a fair amount of autocrossing and I run our local autocross school so I think about the safety stuff quite a bit. Considering I've done this regularly for over ten years now the number of times I've seen anyone crash has been pretty small and in every case there was either no injury to the people in the car or very minor injuries (minor cuts or abrasions). Also, our local lots are, like most local lots, not big enough to have an SCCA legal course that is longer than 20 seconds, so the fact that we keep it safe 99% of the time shows that autocross is generally safe.

Anecdotally, the first track day I went to it started raining and two people crashed with significant damage to their cars despite numerous warnings about taking it easy. It took a few years before I saw anyone crash at autocross by comparison.

I'm not surprised by the fact that at least two people in here have mentioned S2000 crashes. One of them crashed at our local right through the fence separating the run lot from the pit area and barely missed people standing at the fence. There was a lot of runoff room at the finish, but somehow the guy got his pedals mixed up or just wasn't looking at where he was and by the time he stabbed the brake you have the notorious ice mode ABS of the S2000 engaging and that was it. I myself ran a Pro Solo in DC in an STR 2000. It started raining and even though I wasn't going 100% I spun through the finish downhill about 50 yards or so. Luckily there was a ton of runoff room at that site as I didn't hit anything, but I got uncomfortably close to some parking berms.

We have a small hill on one side of our lot and a guy drove his car right up it. That was an interesting one. Another case of gas vs brake getting mixed up it seemed.

Nick Comstock said:

My first ever auto cross was not an SCCA event. It was ran through two separate lots full of curbs, light posts and weaved around buildings, semi trailers and water tanks behind a fire house transitioning from asphalt to concrete and back again. Temps were only in the mid 30's and it was damp. It was exhilarating. And I was shocked that no one wadded anything up. The only time I did see an off at an auto x was a big empty lot with very few poles and very few curbs that were in a straight section and at least five feet of to the side of the cones. And that's where the guy ripped the rear wheel off of his mustang. I never could figure out how that happened.

Scarlet Oaks?

A lot of course design has to be done thinking like a novice/hack in mind. The group I run with has been really good about being careful with what direction a gate is coming out of a tighter corner if it's close-ish to an edge of the track, etc because lets face it... people get pointed near the finish and FLOOR it trying to get every last tenth when adrenaline is pumping... and when it gets out of control a novice/someone less experienced will lift abruptly and make things 10x worse in most cars. 

Some stuff you just can't avoid... we had one car(a VW) go through the finish and wouldn't stop. Owner claimed it had no brakes, spun it trying to slow down(or lost control) and backed it into a tree 80ft past the entire ~100ft slowdown zone. The brake pedal was firm and the booster worked fine when it was restarted... I think it may have gotten into ice-mode and he panicked or something, but we'll just never know the exact truth. No injuries but still a sucky situation.

In reply to eastside Utah John Cougar Montana :

Yes sir! It was epic!

flatlander937 said:

Some stuff you just can't avoid... we had one car(a VW) go through the finish and wouldn't stop. Owner claimed it had no brakes, spun it trying to slow down(or lost control) and backed it into a tree 80ft past the entire ~100ft slowdown zone. The brake pedal was firm and the booster worked fine when it was restarted... I think it may have gotten into ice-mode and he panicked or something, but we'll just never know the exact truth. No injuries but still a sucky situation.

Owned a Jetta that did that about a half dozen times. Was never able to find a problem with it.

A consideration with modernish turbo cars can be blowing the  brake booster hose off/running the brake booster out of vacuum. This happens fairly regularly in my SRT4 and both my co-driver and myself who are big guys end up standing on the brake pedal in a futile attempt to get it to stop well. An electric vacuum pump has helped I understand how a novice could be caught out by something like that happening. I'll also say that a novice shouldn't be in an aggressively set up SMF car. 

The ABS ice mode thing is definitely a danger.  Especially on older cars with potentially flaky ABS systems. 

After one incident with the Jeep going into ice mode during light braking down a hill on dry pavement and sucking up half of my stopping distance before a stop sign and 55 mph cross traffic by the time I released the pedal, the system reset and I got back on the brakes (with the ABS having decided it was failing and now auto-disabled), I disabled it permanently. 

IMO, the benefits of ABS weren't worth troubleshooting that issue and not knowing if it was really fixed or if it was going to cut 90% of my braking at some critical moment. 

I honestly question whether autocross, etc. should require disabled ABS (at least on any car where it can be disabled reasonably).  I'd say a predictable car that's not trying to save you is probably safer than one that's trying to save you but might do it randomly at times that make things worse. 

Seen a several over the years. Some totaling the cars, fortunately no one was ever hurt. Other than their pride. A few years ago, saw someone with a new GT350 Mustang. Owned less than a week and he was drifting, sliding and burning rubber the whole course. Bit him at a bump, car did a 180 into a ditch, all of us course workers saw what the under-carriage of a Mustang looks like but did end up on its wheels. He drove the car away, never saw him the rest of the year. Showed up the following year in a MINI at our start of season school. Drove the MINI a couple years and is now back in the Mustang that still has scars. He's a pretty decent driver now.

Our old place was an former airport, we used the runway section and taxiway section. The taxiway section was narrow and a mistake often put you in the center sliding on grass. That's the way the courses were usually intentionally setup.  Ditch on the other side and there has been cars in the ditch. One upside down. I've been in the grass a few times, mainly when I autocrossed an RX8. Was always leery with the Miata but never went off. Spun yeah but never on the grass. We're at a stadium parking lot now. A couple years ago someone set up a course with a sea of cones wall. 3 run groups, walked it in the morning and drove 3rd run group. Got lost at the wall and backwards on the course. And I'm supposed to be experienced. Only excuse I had was I'm getting old and the time between walking and driving was too much.

Club I autocross with has a novice program. We start the season with a driving school and every event has a novice walk with an experienced driver and we encourage them to ride with experienced and have experienced ride with them. We see it as a way to encourage membership and participation. Novices are never discouraged unless they do something stupid and don't see the error of their way.

This event did not have a novice class. I don't know if that is their standard procedure or not.

Our region has a novice chief and does a novice drivers meeting and a novice walk before every event. The chief also watches the novice class run and helps any that get lost or have questions. It works. 

Our local group has had some discussions today about ways to reduce the chances of a situation like this. It's a balancing act between having a fun fast course for the experienced and having a course that a novice can't screw up catastrophically. 

Makes me glad I'm not a course designer. 

racerfink said:

Toyman01 said:

I'll leave with this.  It’s been said before and needs repeating. If you can't afford to walk away from a smoking pile of scrap, don't bring it to the track. 

 

The racing world would be without a lot of great drivers if this were followed.  Randy Pobst, for one.

I would state that he could afford to, because that is a choice he made. Some people are comfortable with that choice.

There are a bunch that don't even realise that that is a choice they are making. I have the feeling that this guy is one of them. 

I've never had a crash but I've blown up three engines from two different makers, busted a transmission and thrown all the lining off of a clutch disc at autocross. 

That's why my track car was always disposable.

I've personally witnessed a Subaru into a ditch that was well off the course and an E-type jag take a lamp post right in the teeth. The Jag was also immediately after I had a discussion with it's pilot about point fixation. The lamp post was on the inside of a turn that was more than 180 degrees. The driver appeared to have done exactly the opposite of "Look where you want to go".

I can agree with the newbie sign-off period. Make it something like having a senior driver with you for your first three runs or something. 

When I started out, I had no clue what I was doing, got lost often and the only sort of intro I got to the sport was "Go walk the course a few times".

I got a lot better when a couple senior drivers helped me out.

My very first autocross was held at the old Road Atlanta. Staging was on pit road (when the paddock was outside the track) and the course followed the racing line from pit exit up to the esses and nearly to turn five. There were enough cones on track to theoretically keep speeds down but a novice managed to roll a Datsun 2000 somewhere past turn three. 

A rather new WRX went off-course in a slalom and thumped the concrete wall at the old Turner Field site. The driver was a regular and I'm not certain how he accomplished that feat.

Then, we had a novice show up with his riced-out Civic and he accelerated after the finish line, narrowly missed cars and people and finally jumped a curb and hit a small tree. That's where he stopped. Turns out that he had some sort of seizure and some drugs and a firearm in the car. That didn't sit too well with the competitors or the cops.

Spoolpigeon said:

 

Saw an FRS spin through the finish lights and slide a ridiculously long distance and smack a curb. 

I was at that event and spun in the same place, I didn't slide as far as the curb however and avoided anything worse than flat spotted Dunlops.  It was clearly the fault of course design, the finish run involved a dip/corner combo just at the top of second gear causing drivers to be shifting to third with unsettled cars.  I'm pretty sure at least 6-8 cars spun in the same way before the one that ended badly.

As the guy who gives the safety brief and has to fill out paperwork when things get crunchy, I take a dim view of drivers keeping their foot in it well after they have run out of traction and talent.  One of the more painful hits to witness was a 16 year old get into a tank slapper driving his fathers' minty fresh Alfa Graduate and smack a light pole with the rear fender.  It bent the whole rear of the car a couple of inches right.  Dad was awesome though, he didn't blame the son at all and turned the tears around with his positive attitude.  I hope to be so good the day my son bends something of mine.

The event I was at yesterday was my first event. I just watched but they did have a novice class and encouraged new drivers to ask a senior driver to ride along until they felt comfortable. Very well put together event (admittedly I have nothing to base that on). Everyone seemed very friendly and encouraging. A lot of people spun out near the finish it seemed. And one person hit a timing light but no one seemed to break any cars so that was good. 

KyAllroad (Jeremy) said:

Spoolpigeon said:

 

Saw an FRS spin through the finish lights and slide a ridiculously long distance and smack a curb. 

I was at that event and spun in the same place, I didn't slide as far as the curb however and avoided anything worse than flat spotted Dunlops.  It was clearly the fault of course design, the finish run involved a dip/corner combo just at the top of second gear causing drivers to be shifting to third with unsettled cars.  I'm pretty sure at least 6-8 cars spun in the same way before the one that ended badly.

 I take a dim view of drivers keeping their foot in it well after they have run out of traction and talent.

So which one was it, course design or driver error?

Here's a hint: Not everybody spun or crashed

ZombyCougar Woofencamp said:

KyAllroad (Jeremy) said:

Spoolpigeon said:

 

Saw an FRS spin through the finish lights and slide a ridiculously long distance and smack a curb. 

I was at that event and spun in the same place, I didn't slide as far as the curb however and avoided anything worse than flat spotted Dunlops.  It was clearly the fault of course design, the finish run involved a dip/corner combo just at the top of second gear causing drivers to be shifting to third with unsettled cars.  I'm pretty sure at least 6-8 cars spun in the same way before the one that ended badly.

 I take a dim view of drivers keeping their foot in it well after they have run out of traction and talent.

So which one was it, course design or driver error?

Here's a hint: Not everybody spun or crashed

So, if not everyone screwed up it's all driver error?  Kind of an absolutist attitude to take that it can't be a little from column A and a little from column B.