In reply to ZombyCougar Woofencamp : One or two people spinning at the finish is driver error. 6-8 spinning in the morning heat ending in a crash and then redesigning the final run at the finish with added turns to force drivers to slow down is poor course design.
Honestly there are rules and guidelines regarding the speed achieved on an SCCA autocross course and when high HP cars are getting 90 mph through the finish line, it's too much and needs to be "adjusted".
In reply to eastside Utah John Cougar Montana :
Call it what you want, but if you have to slow down to get through a section safely and you don't you've overestimated your ability.
100%of the time.
Toyman01 said:No, I didn't take any pictures of the car. The guy is going to have enough problems without pictures all over the internet. He may well be on the hook for a $40k+ car.
:( It sucks for him, I'm sure. I think the community can benefit from pictures though. Not in a "lets all point and laugh" sense, but so the community can be aware of what the circumstances were, what happened, etc. so this situation can be better avoided in the future.
I think that an honest an open discussion about any incidents would be a lot more beneficial than hiding it.
IMO, a lot of incidents are driver error. Actually almost all of them are. BUT, not just driver error. A well designed course anticipates driver error and prevents those errors from turning into crashes. I've see a LOT of regions with poorly designed courses and very laid back attitudes toward course safety.
Since I started autocrossing in the 80's I've witnessed 3 cars totalled and one injury. That was an autocross partially on an oval. Without fail all were due in part to poor course design. True there was driver error involved, but at the local level you will always have a big spread of experience.
When I used to lay out courses, I would go to the site and slowly drive intended course I wanted to lay out. I would specifically want the car when it exited a feature be somewhat lined up for the following feature. Don't underestimate how much smoother a course flows like this, and how many reduced reruns. I've driven way to many where the designer wanted to torture the laws of physics.
I also studied spin paths at every feature and made sure worker stations were at least of risk as possible.
You will never take novice driving issues away, and now where it seems every car is capable of speeds only dreamed of 20 years ago, this is more of a problem than ever. When i was president of our local club years ago, I initiated course design schools, and think they are definitely a great idea.
As to the finish, most of the near misses I've witnessed almost always occurred there. I like a straight feature, but you to limit the speed there. A feature maybe a hundred yards away can work wonders, but not with a super fast entry that tightens down for instance.
I know this is long winded but course design to me makes or breaks an event, sometimes litterally.
Byrneon27 said:... and put thought into the real importance of driving around cones in a parking lot for fun.
This is a not insignificant part of why I cut way back on autocrossing. It felt like a lot of people lost sight of just what exactly we were doing out there.
ZombyCougar Woofencamp said:flatlander937 said:
Some stuff you just can't avoid... we had one car(a VW) go through the finish and wouldn't stop. Owner claimed it had no brakes, spun it trying to slow down(or lost control) and backed it into a tree 80ft past the entire ~100ft slowdown zone. The brake pedal was firm and the booster worked fine when it was restarted... I think it may have gotten into ice-mode and he panicked or something, but we'll just never know the exact truth. No injuries but still a sucky situation.Owned a Jetta that did that about a half dozen times. Was never able to find a problem with it.
I owned a SVT Contour and rear ended a Ford PU when he had to stop suddenly. I was on dry pavement when I planted my foot on the brake pedal, the car did a nose dive as expected but then the brake pedal pushed my foot back and the car then proceeded to hit the back of the truck. Nothing I could do and no way to prove that the car's ABS system caused the crash.
I came here for photos, there are none...
By what seems to be a trend with ABS makes me glad my base edition NB Miata doesn't have ABS.
Lots of ABS horror stories in this thread, makes me wonder if I'm better off trusting my foot...
I found ice mode on an autocross course in my Exige. I finally nailed a slalom (after coaching) and was going quick into a 180 sweeper. I stabbed the brake to slow and nothing. The cone wall that designated the edge of the course got cleared out. I was shocked and didn't understand why I couldn't lock the tires up or depress the brake any harder. I was proud about the slalom but embarrassed about the cone wall. It wasn't till another Elise driver asked me what happen and I explained I couldn't get it to slow/stop (like that's believable). He knew exactly what happen and explained the same thing happened to him except he caught a bit of curb. From then on I disconnected the ABS sensor for AutoX.
fidelity101 said:I came here for photos, there are none...
yeah... it's generally considered bad form to post autocross crash pictures...
A friend's Focus RS got totaled at an autocross a few months ago. Amazing how "magnetic" a light pole in a giant parking lot can be when a car goes out of control... Fortunately, no one was hurt (he actually wasn't driving) and in a way it actually worked out for the best in his case. He bought a replacement a few weeks ago.
Having designed our high speed courses on a 1/3 mile stock car oval for 5 yrs. that we ran there. Not one crash. As I set up the course I would stop and look and try to vision what might happen, then take a drive myself. We had a concrete wall so coming into turn 4 I designed gates to slow the cars down. Also I stayed away fom the ege of the track.
Course design must be done by some one with autocross driving experience.
I have seen a few near misses, but the only actual accident was a car that spun through the lights and hit a spectator pretty hard, in that case it seemed that a fast course at a site that is really barely big enough for an autocross at all was a big part of the cause. It would probably be better to just not have an event than to do it someplace that isn't really big enough and have people get hurt.
racerfink said:I like how no one has even given one thought to a stuck throttle...
Can that even happen on a modern car with (I'm assuming) drive-by-wire throttle?
I had a stuck throttle a few years back at Calabogie. But that was a 30-year-old car. Lubricated the throttle arm/plate, replaced the return spring, and the problem was solved. Does this kind of thing happen in new cars?
Also, when the throttle did stick, it was pretty much an instinct to hit the clutch. It certainly wasn't a conscious effort: it took a few beats for me to figure out WTF was going on. But clutching in and slowing the car was the natural reaction.
Ian F said:fidelity101 said:I came here for photos, there are none...
yeah... it's generally considered bad form to post autocross crash pictures...
A friend's Focus RS got totaled at an autocross a few months ago. Amazing how "magnetic" a light pole in a giant parking lot can be when a car goes out of control... Fortunately, no one was hurt (he actually wasn't driving) and in a way it actually worked out for the best in his case. He bought a replacement a few weeks ago.
good point. I can't help but troll recently too much - why am I such a doucher recently?!
:(
I've never seen a crash at an autocross, although a friend on foot got hit at one. The one asshat move that I've seen that particularly galls me is the guy who spins out, then burns a donut 180 to get back on course. That sort of adolescent bravado can lead to bad things.
In reply to LanEvo :
That is just what I did.
LanEvo said:racerfink said:I like how no one has even given one thought to a stuck throttle...
Can that even happen on a modern car with (I'm assuming) drive-by-wire throttle?
Also, when the throttle did stick, it was pretty much an instinct to hit the clutch. It certainly wasn't a conscious effort: it took a few beats for me to figure out WTF was going on. But clutching in and slowing the car was the natural reaction.
There's a lot more power in boosted brakes than there is in the motor, so if your booster's check valve is in good working order and you use them properly then the brakes should have no problems stopping a car with a stuck throttle. OTOH, if you squander the boost by applying the brakes too tentatively, or getting on and then off again, it's possible to wind up with a much more difficult problem. On any manual tranny car, clutch in will solve it though.
The only crash I'm aware of at the autox events I used to attend was due to the course crossing over itself, and a starter who waved the green flag too soon. There were a couple of injuries out on course, attributable to people staring at their phones instead of watching the cars on course.
In response to kreb and codrus :
The smoky burnout "Nascar save" and the "looking at your phone" are both things I address during my drivers' meetings and while I'll just talk to you about the phone offense, I'll boot you right off my site for the stupidity behind the wheel.
Other "hard discussion time" events include "warming the tires" in grid. "Testing the two-step" in grid. Speeding in grid. Acting the fool when you leave the site for lunch. And honestly anything else that makes you look like an asshat, offenses to be decided at my discretion.
Accidents happen, but stupid can be shut down if the adults are paying attention.
I've seen about a half dozen incidents in the decade or so I've been autocrossing. Course design may have contributed to one or two of them, but without exception, the primary cause was the proverbial red mist. In fact, its a particular form of the red mist where under-talented drivers decide they will try to save a blown run. Every . . . single . . . time. Unless you run with pretty poor drivers, once the back end kicks out in an unintended place or the front end washes out on you, your run is probably done. The margins are just too small. Smart/experienced drivers just write off the run and make the best of it by trying some new approaches or lines on whatever is left of the course. In each crash I've seen, relatively new drivers try to save the car, save the run and get back up to speed all at the same time. It just can't be done. In fact, I've seen more than one crash after the driver had already DNF'd!
There was speculation that there was a death 3 years ago from a stuck throttle. I'm not sure if they ever figured it out for sure, but I know SCCA issued a karting safety email about throttle & linkage right after the incident.
Ian F said:fidelity101 said:I came here for photos, there are none...
it's generally considered bad form to post autocross crash pictures...
Again, this is dumb :(
I hope it changes soon. Heck, I'd like to see video posted of most crashes/incidents for analysis.
I think most of the autoX crash videos i've seen were of stockish cars with stability control doing things that would be almost impossible if the stability control hadn't been turned off. Someone mentioned Randy Pobst. In his MT videos he pretty frequently brings up differences with stability or traction control turned on or off (meaning he at least gives it a chance and explores it). What I haven't heard him say is that his stability-on laps are probably better than what you'd get from a typical enthusiast driver driving with it off. Anyway, nobody wants to hear this angle, so on to something else..
I'm all for improving the safety of race events, but considering how statistically small those risks are compared to what we take on the road every day in normal commuting, i think there's a real risk of being penny wise and pound foolish talking about improving the safety of racers when the low hanging fruit are people who barely know how to drive at all who you encounter approximately 7000x more often. A rising tide of basic driver training would lift all boats, including novice/first time racers.
I have seen a couple of close calls but not crashes. Both were a result of a course design that pointed the shut down area at the grid. One was stuck throttle on Mod car. The other was a 16 year-old driving his dad's 911 GT3 and staying on the gas too far past the lights. With each, changes were made to grid configuration and the shut down to point the cars in a direction with much more open space.
In reply to codrus :
That's the same place I saw a spectator get hit, that area seems way too small to be safe. I think the abandoned airport venue in the general area is infinitely better as far as avoiding incidents.
ProDarwin said:There was speculation that there was a death 3 years ago from a stuck throttle. I'm not sure if they ever figured it out for sure, but I know SCCA issued a karting safety email about throttle & linkage right after the incident.
Ian F said:fidelity101 said:I came here for photos, there are none...
it's generally considered bad form to post autocross crash pictures...
Again, this is dumb :(
I hope it changes soon. Heck, I'd like to see video posted of most crashes/incidents for analysis.
Arm-chair interweb analysis? Seriously? Major incidents are investigated by professionals. Even videos of an incident can't tell the whole story. Posting a few random pictures would serve no purpose other than to satisfy morbid curiosity.
The issue is most autocross programs are on such thin ice when it comes to site access that any incidents tend to kept tightly under wraps. The last thing they need is pictures of the incident getting out and everyone and their mother seeing them and commenting. That would get a site shut down almost instantly.
I vaguely remember the kart death incident and some of the resulting aftermath.
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