KyAllroad said:In reply to Asphalt_Gundam :
You should see the Las Vegas Motorsports Park. LV recognizes that people like to do stuff so they set aside huge tracts of land for a whole variety of motorsports venues. Proving that if you build it, they will come.
We are lucky in that the LVMS is in the flight path for Nellis AFB so they really can't develop much beyond mega warehouses. If we didn't have the LVMS locallly it would be tough.
Our program is alive and well.
L5wolvesf said:FWIW, I never thought SCCA was any good at marketing their "product". Back when I was doing autoX (early 80s) much / most of their advertising was aimed at racers and very little outside that. I have no idea if that has changed since, but I don't see anything from them anywhere (except here).
There's a reason we call them the secret car club of America.
When I was active in autocross, I actually helped secure several venues, including at my company. In retrospect, I don't think that would be as easy today as it was 20 years ago, or even possible today.
We lose older venues for aforementioned reasons. New (potential) venues aren't being built because of the death of retail and different designs -- parking lots are no longer being constructed with vast swaths of pavement. There are islands, lighting, green spaces, and a lot of possible ingress/egress points, which are obviously safety issues.
How I see autocross, after 25 years of motorsport dabbling:
It's the cheapest way to dip a toe into motorsport, hands-down. It's safe and has low barriers to entry. I view it as a transitional sport for most - people dip a toe and either lose interest or "progress" to HPDE or W2W. To be competitive, the learning curve is incredibly steep due to the limited seat time and technical nature of the driving. Autox schools are a must-do, otherwise it's frustrating to be uncompetitive, which pushes people away after the novelty wears off. Due to the time requirements, it skews the attendance to the young-and-kidless or old-and-kidless. I have much respect for hardcore autocrossers - it's a tough sport.
Autocross will need to consolidate to dedicated motorsport facilities, which will drive a need to change the format to fit onto a track, or to be able to support the investment in pavement. Pavement doesn't make money after the death of retail, so I think track-cross is the future.
Rallycross is cool, but man it's hard on cars and facilities. You need someone that has a pretty 40-acre plot that they're willing to get rutted up and muddy. Then you'll need to re-grade. Again, I think the pressure will be to consolidate it to a dedicated venue.
David S. Wallens said:So, a related question. We know that autocross sites have (always) been a challenge to secure, but are any groups having trouble filling the grids with drivers?
I remember at the end of last year here in Dallas there was an SCCA road racing/time trial event that was having trouble filling the grid. They said they would have to cancel if they didn't get enough cars. I kept getting e-mails inviting me to sign up, even though I had dropped out of SCCA a year before. I don't know what happened after that.
I do know that my utilities have doubled in price in the last two months, my property taxes have gone up, my car insurance has gone up and I have less money in the bank after paying the bills to spend on things like autocross or even renewing SCCA memberships. It makes me think twice about everything I spend. I guess most of the people here are wealthy and don't have to worry about such things, but this must be affecting some people who are not going to events they used to attend.
David S. Wallens said:So, a related question. We know that autocross sites have (always) been a challenge to secure, but are any groups having trouble filling the grids with drivers?
10-15 years ago almost every event had registration capped at 150 and we would meet that number a week before the event. Even the rallycross events had 50-70 cars at them. Fast forward to today and the average event is lucky to have 60 cars and the rallycross program is gone for lack of enough people interested in running it.
We are down to one really crappy venue at Darlington Raceway that costs more money than is collected and the occasional use of a shopping center.
I've pretty much quit autocross due to lousy venues. It's not worth the effort to drive 2 hours to a venue where 30-second runs are the norm and they consist of a slalom out and a slalom back. I went to one event last year. I drove the Bentley to the event and hung out with friends.
An adjacent region almost canceled its autocross program because no one would volunteer to help put on the events.
From where I'm standing, autocross looked like a dying program. It's going the same way the small circle tracks went in the 80s and 90s. Pushed out by the lawyers, the developers, and the regulations that control parking lots and green space. Personally, I don't see where the SCCA or NASA has any interest in promoting it. They are too busy with Time Trials and TNA.
I also don't see the volunteerism that was so prevalent 10 years ago. No one wants to be the RE or the Solo Chair or the secretary. We basically had to beg people to run for office this year. No one wants to show up early and stay late setting up the course or get stuck in the van running timing. Half of the complain about having to be there all day to get their 6 minutes of driving. God forbid they have to spend 15 hours helping so everybody can drive. I can't count the number of 3 am morning and 12 pm evenings I've had helping make an event happen. The new blood doesn't seem to have that willingness to volunteer.
Between the lack of promotion at the national level and the burnout at the regional level, I don't see the program continuing in any healthy fashion. It will return to the dozen old guys driving around a dozen cones in the back of a warehouse, like it was when I looked at it the first time in the 1990s.
I’m based in CT and I’ve autocrossed a lot, starting in 2010, doing around 20 events a year for a while. Unfortunately, the two local clubs have lost a ton of venues (some good, some not to be missed) over that time. At the same time new road courses have been popping up, with two nice ones (Thompson and Palmer) just over an hour from my house. Over that same period programs like Track Night in America have been driving down the cost of getting on track. So while autocross sites have been getting fewer and further away, tracks have been popping up and access to them has been getting better. Even after I started doing track days and time trials I kept doing some autocross because it’s fun, but that stopped after my daughter was born (she’s 3 now). I try to get out for one “motorsports” day per month and if I’m taking one day for myself to do driving stuff, I want to drive for more than 4-10 minutes. A full-day trackday or time trial can easily result in 100+ miles of seat time. I’ve never really understood the “it’s worth it because of the social aspect” argument as a pro for autocross relative to other driving events. In my experience there’s the social aspect of hanging out with other car people at all of the events, some just offer more seat time and less working time than others. Even my iRacing league has a strong social aspect with pretty much the whole field chatting on Discord for all of practice and post-race.
docwyte said:.... I enjoy the driving part of it but the time breakdown doesn't make sense for me and my life. It doesn't make sense to spend 10 hours for under 6 minutes of driving time
+100
I wish there was some way to compete once a month that slotted between the $250 autocross day and the $1000-1500 time trial day. This mythical sport would have left and right turns and would have the option of driving the car to the event without breaking any safety or environmental laws. HPDE and TNIA are fine but they don't have any competition and they don't run once a month. The closest "good" autocross to me is 3.5 hours south or 5 hours north and I don't think it is worth a hotel room. Is it time to start drifting?
In reply to ojannen :
yes
ojannen said:I wish there was some way to compete once a month that slotted between the $250 autocross day and the $1000-1500 time trial day. This mythical sport would have left and right turns and would have the option of driving the car to the event without breaking any safety or environmental laws. HPDE and TNIA are fine but they don't have any competition and they don't run once a month. The closest "good" autocross to me is 3.5 hours south or 5 hours north and I don't think it is worth a hotel room. Is it time to start drifting?
Are there no time trial clubs in your area? I run my car (street legal, driven to track Miata) in time trial events (SCCA TTNT, COMSCC, CARTCT, etc.) with the exact same configuration/prep as I do for HPDE and TNiA. Entry fee and amount of track time is similar to a normal track day. The main difference (aside from the timer and the trophies) is that the experience level of the drivers tends to be higher at time trials. What barriers are you facing that makes TT signficantly more exensive than HPDE?
TT doesn't cost $1000 a day. Trying to beat people in TT can be costly, but showing up and running a car isn't.
The risk factor of the higher speeds, wear and tear on car and stuff breaking goes up for TT and HPDE for me over autocross. I don't mind doing 1-2 track days a year, but doing it monthly just feels a lot harder to do vs 1-2 autocrosses a month. I get my fix with the 5 or so minutes of seat time.
Not sure what to do about the site issues, and I don't think the boutique race tracks are catering to normal people. Seems everything else is catering to the top 5%ers with exotics like the tracks that are being built up in Central Florida.
As much as I love going to the FIRM as the guys who run it are great, and the track being tough on brakes helps sort reliability issues, I honestly wouldn't mind a track that was a little less harder on my car.
CrashDummy said:ojannen said:I wish there was some way to compete once a month that slotted between the $250 autocross day and the $1000-1500 time trial day. This mythical sport would have left and right turns and would have the option of driving the car to the event without breaking any safety or environmental laws. HPDE and TNIA are fine but they don't have any competition and they don't run once a month. The closest "good" autocross to me is 3.5 hours south or 5 hours north and I don't think it is worth a hotel room. Is it time to start drifting?
Are there no time trial clubs in your area? I run my car (street legal, driven to track Miata) in time trial events (SCCA TTNT, COMSCC, CARTCT, etc.) with the exact same configuration/prep as I do for HPDE and TNiA. Entry fee and amount of track time is similar to a normal track day. The main difference (aside from the timer and the trophies) is that the experience level of the drivers tends to be higher at time trials. What barriers are you facing that makes TT signficantly more exensive than HPDE?
I mean, my One Lap car has been my daily for 2 years. It's been driven to all but one event with Gridlife. SCCA Time trials. RevMatch HPDE. Car's seen a couple thousand track miles. It uses one set of pads for an entire season, one set of tires last the whole season plus a couple more events. Pads/rotors are $500 for the year, tires $600 for the year.
If you're just looking for an excuse to drift than don't let us stop you, but I've never paid anywhere near $1000-1500 for a WEEKEND of TT or HPDE.
Toyman! said:Between the lack of promotion at the national level and the burnout at the regional level, I don't see the program continuing in any healthy fashion. It will return to the dozen old guys driving around a dozen cones in the back of a warehouse, like it was when I looked at it the first time in the 1990s.
I actually wouldn't mind if it went back to that. Right now I think that it is really "grassroots motorsports" that is dying. There are plenty of Road Racing Country Club venues in my area for guys with money to burn. Even the $45 autocrosses are filled with modified cars coming in on enclosed trailers. Look at the SCCA magazine. Lots of articles about kids in their early 20s already getting sponsors and looking at professional careers. Lots of very expensive race cars and pricey National Events for people with months of paid leave and the independently wealthy. It's kind of like joining a Polo Club. It does exist, but can you afford it? I can see why even road racers have abandoned SCCA for Lemons and Chumpcar.
What about a $2,000 class for autocross and rallycross that bans expensive race tires? Kind of like the Challenge, but regional. Try to keep the entry fee at $25 or less. Kind of like Lemons/Chumpcar racing for autocrossers.
Indy - Guy said:docwyte said:.... I enjoy the driving part of it but the time breakdown doesn't make sense for me and my life. It doesn't make sense to spend 10 hours for under 6 minutes of driving time
+100
Meanwhile:
KyAllroad said:I'm real tired of the "seat time" comparison. It's simply a different animal, but in the Olympics people want to see the sprints not the marathon. People lose their collective E36 M3 to see the Kentucky Derby, not the 100 mile endurance race. The SCCA (secret car club of america) has steadfastly refused to promote autocross and everyone says "that can't possibly be entertaining" but look what the Discovery Channel did with 1/8th mile drag racers from the middle of nowhere USA. It got huge and revitalized drag racing. No-Prep racing is bigger that the NHRA, and it took a midsized cable network getting the sport in front of eyeballs.
Apples and oranges, IMO. For the Olympics or Kentucky Derby, I can turn on the TV right before the event I want starts and then turn it off and go about my business. I would suspect that grassroots drag racing doesn't take 8-10 hours just for a few passes, which is what autox typically is.
I'm not trying to bash autox. When I participated, I thouroughly enjoyed my track time. I also met great people. However, as my life changed (kids, busier job, etc...) the time value quickly slid to the point where it was an absolute no. If there was a way I could get 4 runs in and spend no more than a few hours of my day, I'd hop right back in.
Racebrick said:TT doesn't cost $1000 a day. Trying to beat people in TT can be costly, but showing up and running a car isn't.
In total cost? It absolutely does unless you're doing it with the absolute cheapest to own and operate car possible. But in that case a day of autocross is cheaper than the quoted price too.
The other thing is that TT and autocross are competitive events. If you're just interested in "showing up and running a car" that's fine, go do a track day. But that's not a direct alternative if you're looking for competition.
As I think the cost of HPDE versus Autocross may factor into this I will chime in.
Our entry fees are $50 versus $200 for our local one day Time Trial & HPDE. The fuel costs are going to be between $100 more per day. The extra tire wear for track events on my cars factors out to between $100 per day.
So my track days are $350 more per day than an autocross. Like most people who do HPDEs or W2W I find this worth it but not everyone has the extra $350. My total costs for autocross are $150 per day versus $500 for track events.
Now back to the social aspect of autocross; yes all race events are social events but with autocross you spend more time with people. With vintage racing I've got an extra 90 minutes of stuff that needs to be done (refuel the car make adjustments etc.) so for me there is not near as much social interaction as there is with autocross.
ojannen said:I wish there was some way to compete once a month that slotted between the $250 autocross day and the $1000-1500 time trial day. This mythical sport would have left and right turns and would have the option of driving the car to the event without breaking any safety or environmental laws. HPDE and TNIA are fine but they don't have any competition and they don't run once a month. The closest "good" autocross to me is 3.5 hours south or 5 hours north and I don't think it is worth a hotel room. Is it time to start drifting?
Near me a club track does (road course) bracket racing, to fill that gap. So, hpde level of prep and cost but with the added competition aspect.
If autocross died local to me, I would probably just move on from auto sports to be honest. Nearest track is going to be a decent drive, would want a truck and trailer to pull the car and all that jazz. I would probably just have a fun back roads car and focus on mountain biking to get my kicks.
dps214 said:Racebrick said:TT doesn't cost $1000 a day. Trying to beat people in TT can be costly, but showing up and running a car isn't.
In total cost? It absolutely does unless you're doing it with the absolute cheapest to own and operate car possible. But in that case a day of autocross is cheaper than the quoted price too.
The other thing is that TT and autocross are competitive events. If you're just interested in "showing up and running a car" that's fine, go do a track day. But that's not a direct alternative if you're looking for competition.
I must be doing it wrong then.
In reply to Tom1200 :
that social interaction depends on the event organization. I can tell you that many I go play with it's a hangout/campout that we go spend some time (couple hours a day) on track.
For the low cost option, volunteer to work these events. Most will either wave or greatly reduce the cost, you get to help an event run and you are interacting with people all day long. It's all about how you approach it. I can imagine the clientele is quite a bit different between a vintage racing weekend and a gridlife or even SCCA TT weekend. Even then, I am sure its like autox and thats completely different depending on what region is hosting.
Racebrick said:dps214 said:Racebrick said:TT doesn't cost $1000 a day. Trying to beat people in TT can be costly, but showing up and running a car isn't.
In total cost? It absolutely does unless you're doing it with the absolute cheapest to own and operate car possible. But in that case a day of autocross is cheaper than the quoted price too.
The other thing is that TT and autocross are competitive events. If you're just interested in "showing up and running a car" that's fine, go do a track day. But that's not a direct alternative if you're looking for competition.
I must be doing it wrong then.
I've got dollar figures on this stuff. Local track events are $350 per day and out of town is $550 per day. I am on the low end of the budget as far as vintage racers go. I do know some of the guys running SCCA National events are spending $1300 per day.
I actually won my class at our last SCCA time trial. Sure there were only 3 of us but local events don't tend to be heavy on competition.
For autocross there is no one in my class so I'm shooting for the higest possible finish. Realistically there are only 7 of us that are shooting for the 2-5th place overall (shifter kart takes FTD every time).
Autocross offers the lowest cost for a competitive event as well as ease of entry.
Here is a quick and dirty estimate of time trial costs at a nasa event at Sebring. They are the only club that has more than 6 events I can do this year without a hotel stay due to the distance.
Depending on how you do it, autocross can have a similar cost per minute of seat time while competing. With a $50 entry fee and car wear ammortized over 15+ events, the per event cost is much lower.
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