Autocross is dying

bobzilla said:

I really don't get the "if I can't win everytime I won't waste my time" attitude. That's not really the grass roots mentality. 

Winning every time is boring.  Winning if you have to really work for it feels good.

kb58 said:

I was fortunate enough to run at Jack Murphy stadium in San Diego back in the 1980s, and it was awesome. It was a huge parking lot - pre-berms, bumpstops, and grass islands, and fast cars could get about 100mph. Then the trolley went in, removing about 30% of the useable area, which reducing interest by the faster car owners. Then there were a few other changes "nibbling away at the cookie", with the available space getting smaller and smaller. Then of course, the entire stadium shut down and is gone. The next closest venue is either Lake Elsinore or AutoClub Speedway, both much further away for me.

I ran Jack Murphy back in the 80s too. I was with Guldstrand Racing Association (GRA) from LA area. That place was a blast. 

Auto Club is changing and won't be available for a while due to construction.

bobzilla said:

In reply to ojannen :

SCCA T5 in the same car is still pretty fun too. That's where the Rio slots. 

I've always been odd in that I like to take cars to do things that no one thinks they can do. Forte to Solo Nats in STF. Car had no business being as good as it was. Rio for Sundae cup and One Lap. I've done others as well but the point is while I'm never competing for a podium or jacket, I'm having fun doing it in something so off the wall that when it doesn't suck everyone (myself included) is shocked and people have fun with it. You know how many times I got to hear people in what should be faster cars get told by their buddies "dude you got beat by a 4 door Kia."

 

That is what is one of the fun things about rallycross.  You can spend all the money you want and still get your tail handed to you by someone in a stock Neon on bald all-seasons.

I say this with what I feel will be the ultimate expression of rallycross roostage in the garage... after a year of blood, sweat, and migraines and still not done... and I fully expect to have someone in a stock Neon be faster.  But that isn't the ultimate goal, the goal is the fun on course and hanging out with like minded crazies.

The social aspect of auto-x is lost on me.  Either you're in grid and have limited time to chat, or working and can't chat at all.  I'm in the van doing timing, so not chatting with anyone.  Yes, chat at lunch.  But again, 10 hours of my time for 6 minutes of driving, although it is less expensive than DE.

I used to run NASA time trials and since I instructed the costs weren't too high as my entry fee was waived.  However I was pretty busy, so less time to socialize.  Then people started to take it very seriously and it just wasn't nearly as much fun for me.  So now I run with the Porsche club, which is more expensive but way more fun.

docwyte said:

The social aspect of auto-x is lost on me.  Either you're in grid and have limited time to chat, or working and can't chat at all.  I'm in the van doing timing, so not chatting with anyone.  Yes, chat at lunch.  But again, 10 hours of my time for 6 minutes of driving, although it is less expensive than DE.

Limited time to chat in grid?  It's been a decade since I went regularly, but we'd get 4 1-minute runs in about 90 minutes.  That left plenty of time to chat with the other folks around me in grid.

Also, we typically ran 4 groups in the morning.  Group 1 worked for 3, 3 worked for 1, etc.  So you'd get 2 whole groups' worth of time to do other stuff such as socializing.

And yes, working the trailer offers less socialization time than working the course, but that's the tradeoff for not having to stand out in the sun chasing cones. :)

Working course for me is turning around in circles and BSing with my station's other workers 

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

Only two groups with PCA auto-x and they run thru the grid quickly, so very limited opportunities to socialize

My exposure to SCCA Auto crossing has been a way to compete, with a car over a year long series of events on a wide variety of track layouts for the most part in the same location.  Locally we have been very spoiled, for a number of years in that we had a destination site that would bring people from all over the south west.  The club had a program for the kids with 3 levels of a junior kart program that helped develop the drivers of tomorrow.  That program is gone.

The site we might have take for granted is going to be re purposed, I would like to point out that the lot might be the low point of the 600 acre raceway.  The two giant culverts at the lowest point of the lot can handle a lot of water, but we have seen a lake at lot 12 on numerous occasions.  But they can bring in the required fill to keep the building  dry.  But what about the trucks and trailers?  This is going to be fun to watch them learn about rain in Southern California. 

The lots that are available today are going to be smaller, my 1970 Datsun Roadster, a 1600 should be perfect.  Funny how the old and slower cars seem to attract an audience.  I just get to drive farther to enjoy the competing. 

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

That is what is one of the fun things about rallycross.  You can spend all the money you want and still get your tail handed to you by someone in a stock Neon on bald all-seasons.

I say this with what I feel will be the ultimate expression of rallycross roostage in the garage... after a year of blood, sweat, and migraines and still not done... and I fully expect to have someone in a stock Neon be faster.  But that isn't the ultimate goal, the goal is the fun on course and hanging out with like minded crazies.

Agreed.  Sometimes the classing is just funny, as you'll have a bunch of stock cars, some 2wd at the top of the heap and all of the heavily modifed stuff going slower. All a matter of the drivers and what cars just work well for today's course. 

Not autocross, but not entirely different either: the Reno air races. Same reasons affecting autocross venues: rising land values, (spectator) entry fees, noise complains, and liability.

In reply to kb58 :

Yes, much like autoX and race tracks they too are looking for a future location. I was just talking to a friend about going to Reno gain, but for the last one there.

rslifkin said:

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

That is what is one of the fun things about rallycross.  You can spend all the money you want and still get your tail handed to you by someone in a stock Neon on bald all-seasons.

I say this with what I feel will be the ultimate expression of rallycross roostage in the garage... after a year of blood, sweat, and migraines and still not done... and I fully expect to have someone in a stock Neon be faster.  But that isn't the ultimate goal, the goal is the fun on course and hanging out with like minded crazies.

Agreed.  Sometimes the classing is just funny, as you'll have a bunch of stock cars, some 2wd at the top of the heap and all of the heavily modifed stuff going slower. All a matter of the drivers and what cars just work well for today's course. 

I tried Autocross with PCA. Nice people and cool cars, but not worth getting up early on a weekend to drive circles in a parking lot. Now I drive 2.5 hours for SCCA Rallycross and 3+ hours for North Texas Rallycross and love it. I have just as much fun with my wrecked Camry Hybrid as I do with an assortment of depreciated Porsche Boxsters. I can't easily quantify the difference, but I love RallyX and find AutoX meh.

The solution is obvious to me. Club regional road racing is struggling for car counts, track rentals and sanction fees are going up, and dedicated autocross venues are disappearing. Our region is trying to roll in or "mash-up" regional racing, TT and TrackSprink or Track Autocross into a single weekend. It only makes sense to join in the combo events together for a dedicated track venue. It could solve the race worker shortage as well giving track time for corner work as well as expose drivers to a progression into other things. More cars per weekend at a venue usually means more fun and energy. Adapt to survive. 

ojannen said:

In reply to pheller :

Rallycross is setup for a $500 per day land rental.  That means with 30 participants paying $50 each, scca takes roughly half, or $750, mostly for insurance, the venue takes $500, and $250 goes in the bank for yearly expenses (cones, trailer repair, radios, etc)

Wow.

I'm paying $2500 a day in lot rent and $375 a day in event insurance.  That's not counting roughly $100 per event in overhead insurance for the club or MSR processing fees.

I need about 60 cars per autocross at $50/$55 each just to break even on direct expenses. And that's before I can even consider replacing cones or computers or tents.

kb58 said:

How many people are willing to give up a whole day for ~3 minutes of track time? How many are fine standing in the hot/cold for several hours chasing cones? How far are they willing to drive for this 3 minutes? Maybe I'm just old and "been there done that."

My season opener is in 2 weeks.

Preregistration hit the 100-car cap at least 10 days ago. I currently have a waitlist 30+ cars deep.

 

My season opener is in 2 weeks.

Preregistration hit the 100-car cap at least 10 days ago. I currently have a waitlist 30+ cars deep.

 

My region would like to pay for your services to replicate these results. 

bobzilla said:

L5wolvesf said:

FWIW, I never thought SCCA was any good at marketing their "product". Back when I was doing autoX (early 80s) much / most of their advertising was aimed at racers and very little outside that. I have no idea if that has changed since, but I don't see anything from them anywhere (except here).

There's a reason we call them the secret car club of America. 

Speaking of Secret Car Club and venues . . .

Since the dirt track nearest to me (north Phoenix about 100 miles away) has been terminated I’ve been looking for something somewhat speedy to do. This here thread reminded me that AZ SCCA had been running rallyX down around Tucson. As I looked to see if it still was I came across a rallyX event in Camp Verde. CV is a town / wide spot in the dirt about 20 miles from me. They have kept that a secret since around October. So I seems like the biggest obstacle is SCCA itself.

I am going to check it out this afternoon. I may be posting further about what car might be best to get into if it looks like a thing I want to try for a while.

AAZCD-Jon (Forum Supporter) said:

rslifkin said:

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

That is what is one of the fun things about rallycross.  You can spend all the money you want and still get your tail handed to you by someone in a stock Neon on bald all-seasons.

I say this with what I feel will be the ultimate expression of rallycross roostage in the garage... after a year of blood, sweat, and migraines and still not done... and I fully expect to have someone in a stock Neon be faster.  But that isn't the ultimate goal, the goal is the fun on course and hanging out with like minded crazies.

Agreed.  Sometimes the classing is just funny, as you'll have a bunch of stock cars, some 2wd at the top of the heap and all of the heavily modifed stuff going slower. All a matter of the drivers and what cars just work well for today's course. 

I tried Autocross with PCA. Nice people and cool cars, but not worth getting up early on a weekend to drive circles in a parking lot. Now I drive 2.5 hours for SCCA Rallycross and 3+ hours for North Texas Rallycross and love it. I have just as much fun with my wrecked Camry Hybrid as I do with an assortment of depreciated Porsche Boxsters. I can't easily quantify the difference, but I love RallyX and find AutoX meh.

An aside, a lot of the Mod rules rewrite was to prevent cars that look like that from running.  They really, really want to discourage the "grab a beat up E36 M3box and go trash it" mentality.  Looks bad in Sportscar.

I have known other people who would rather drive 3-5 hours away to rallycross than 20 minutes to autocross, so you are definitely not alone.  When Bob Poling (out of Akron, Ohio) discovered rallycross, he would drive to Ohio, Detroit, DC region events.  Everyone in a 300-400 mile radius knew Bob and his #51 WRX, pulled from STX duty to run in PA.

L5wolvesf said:

bobzilla said:

L5wolvesf said:

FWIW, I never thought SCCA was any good at marketing their "product". Back when I was doing autoX (early 80s) much / most of their advertising was aimed at racers and very little outside that. I have no idea if that has changed since, but I don't see anything from them anywhere (except here).

There's a reason we call them the secret car club of America. 

Speaking of Secret Car Club and venues . . .

 

Since the dirt track nearest to me (north Phoenix about 100 miles away) has been terminated I’ve been looking for something somewhat speedy to do. This here thread reminded me that AZ SCCA had been running rallyX down around Tucson. As I looked to see if it still was I came across a rallyX event in Camp Verde. CV is a town / wide spot in the dirt about 20 miles from me. They have kept that a secret since around October. So I seems like the biggest obstacle is SCCA itself.

I am going to check it out this afternoon. I may be posting further about what car might be best to get into if it looks like a thing I want to try for a while.

I inadvertently helped build local RallyCross events by posting pictures of my RX-7 exploits to various forums.  An Ohio-based track oriented forum, the Ohio VW forum, the Ohio Subaru forum, RX-7club... everywhere.  

Need to put the info out there for people to find!  Just as the SCCA is not a "them" but an "us", one can't assume that "they" will put word out.

Sites get lost?  Maybe that interest push could have got someone interested who happened to have a farm with an unused lot.  Or a guy who knows a guy.  Those kind of connections matter in ways that are not always obvious.

The Roos' site we used to run at was one of those.  Someone found out about rallycross in part due to my posting pics everywhere, he got started doing it, was talking about it at work and one of his co workers said "Hey, I have a big field out back of my house for my kids to ride dirtbikes and stuff, would that work?"  

One can't rely on hoping people see your event on msreg.  That requires their active involvement.  Need to passively recruit. Go to local cruise-ins with the car all stickered up, answer questions, get people hooked 

Pete. (l33t FS) said:An aside, a lot of the Mod rules rewrite was to prevent cars that look like that from running.  They really, really want to discourage the "grab a beat up E36 M3box and go trash it" mentality.  Looks bad in Sportscar.

People actually read Sportscar instead of transferring it straight from the mailbox to the recycling?

bludroptop said:

My season opener is in 2 weeks.

Preregistration hit the 100-car cap at least 10 days ago. I currently have a waitlist 30+ cars deep.

My region would like to pay for your services to replicate these results. 

It's not an ideal venue but it is in a great location.

EvanB said:

Pete. (l33t FS) said:An aside, a lot of the Mod rules rewrite was to prevent cars that look like that from running.  They really, really want to discourage the "grab a beat up E36 M3box and go trash it" mentality.  Looks bad in Sportscar.

People actually read Sportscar instead of transferring it straight from the mailbox to the recycling?

Presumably the advertisers do.

I wish it was easier to find out what class your car fits in to. A nice online drop-down menu type thing. Make, Model, Year, and basic mods. Have it tell you exactly what class you fit into, and let you explore new classes without going through the rule book. Sure, the rule book will always be superior, but if you want people to join for the first time it's all about accessibility.

A class-finding app would be awesome.

mr2peak said:

I wish it was easier to find out what class your car fits in to. A nice online drop-down menu type thing. Make, Model, Year, and basic mods. Have it tell you exactly what class you fit into, and let you explore new classes without going through the rule book. Sure, the rule book will always be superior, but if you want people to join for the first time it's all about accessibility.

A class-finding app would be awesome.

That's probably another reason my Rallycross experience has been more fun than Autocross. I'm there to have fun with my car with other people having fun with their cars. At least with the groups that I do it with, the classes are simple and nobody is freaking out over minutae. Wear a helmet, have the car meet the safety standards, and don't be a dick. If you class incorrectly nobody is going to have a melt-down.

I started in autocross many decades ago, and still know some serious solo people.   I know one couple that is having a blast in solo and have put in a class that their vehicle has no chance of getting a trophy, but yet they are having a good time streaching the legs of their car.   Many beginners jump in without concern for class.

That said I do understand that once the competitive juices start flowing it is tough to figure out a class unless the car is pure stock.  Has always been that way.  In the early 70s my little 40 hp VW was bumped up a class because it had non-factory driving lights.     I just decided I would build a FTD car and screw the class structure.    That worked well.