Autocross tire talk

So, I was talking with Mark Daddio the other day at our local and he is running mismatched front and rear tires (Rival S and RE71R) on his C6 Z06 because he can't get the right sizes front and rear of his preferred tire and apparently at this point his preferred tire for warmer weather is the new Rival S. He seemed to think that the Rival S will take heat better and not fall off when the weather is above 70 degrees whereas the RE71R falls off as the tire temp rises. He did seem to think that ultimately if the weather is cooler that the RE71R wins out though. Not sure about different surfaces (asphalt vs concrete).

Also, disappointingly, everyone seems to agree that these new tires are giving at least a second advantage on some of the older tires including the Hankook RS3 V2 which is what I have on my Focus ST at the moment.

Seems like we might be headed for a situation where we end up with "street" tires in name only since the treadwear rating is just a test that can be gamed. I suppose if we're still able to drive to the event on the tires that's better than running r-comps, but you're still looking at moving back to a situation where people end up swapping tires halfway through the year or buy stickers for nationals. I suppose people already do stuff like that now, but it probably doesn't give nearly the advantage that it will in a year or two.

Harvey wrote: Seems like we might be headed for a situation where we end up with "street" tires in name only since the treadwear rating is just a test that can be gamed.

I can't be the only one that is not surprised by this happening. It was predictable from the moment that the R tires went away from the stock classes.

R tires were gamed just as much- they are supposed to be street legal, but the Hoosiers had a sticker telling owners to not drive them on the street.

The wear rating war seems to be just as easy to game- it won't be long until cars will have to be trailered to events with 200 wear ratings.

Not that I'm in a position to complain, since I've not been to an event since 2012.

I was kinda liking my year or two here of not buying tires. --sigh--

I just run a legitimate street tire. I know i suck too bad at this point to be competitive, so I don't bother changing things. Driver improvements first.

Yep pretty soon everyone's going to be driving on "200TW" tires that stick to walls and only last one event...predictable. Either the tire treadwear system needs to be reformed so that it means something, or the rules have to change to put an end to this silly game.

In reply to GameboyRMH:

I don't see the treadwear system changing- that's an industry wide thing, where most of the tire makers don't care about autocrossing. Or better that almost all tires are not autocross tires and the system works fine with those- so why change the system?

Dusterbd13 wrote: I just run a legitimate street tire. I know i suck too bad at this point to be competitive, so I don't bother changing things. Driver improvements first.

I'm on the edge of being pretty good at it and I have a competitive car which is why this sort of thing starts to enter my mind. Am I good enough to bother with better tires? Do I want to spend the dough?

alfadriver wrote: In reply to GameboyRMH: I don't see the treadwear system changing- that's an industry wide thing, where most of the tire makers don't care about autocrossing. Or better that almost all tires are not autocross tires and the system works fine with those- so why change the system?

If tire manufacturers don't care then why do they come out with a new bleeding edge tire every year or two? The rating system is entirely self reported and down at the 200 TW range they are getting very very sketchy about their honesty.

There should be some sort of way to standardize the ratings but honestly I don't see it happening any time soon.

alfadriver wrote: In reply to GameboyRMH: I don't see the treadwear system changing- that's an industry wide thing, where most of the tire makers don't care about autocrossing. Or better that almost all tires are not autocross tires and the system works fine with those- so why change the system?

The way I see it it's an industry-wide problem, it's just that the problem is most visible and severe on the pointy end of the EPS tire range. Soccer moms also get ripped off by the system when they buy a tire with a higher treadwear rating that doesn't actually last longer than one with a lower treadwear rating.

It is better though. With year old 200TW Dunlops I have a chance of being competitive at a local level even vs. guys with RE-71R's or Rival S. In the old days going against R-comps I would have no chance, I wouldn't even be close. With 200TW at least there's a spectrum going from the haves to the have-nots. With R-comps there was a huge drop off. The guys who spend a ton of money will always do so. They will always be guys who have 3 sets of wheels, regardless what tire rules you put in place short of a spec tire.

KyAllroad wrote:

alfadriver wrote: In reply to GameboyRMH: I don't see the treadwear system changing- that's an industry wide thing, where most of the tire makers don't care about autocrossing. Or better that almost all tires are not autocross tires and the system works fine with those- so why change the system?

If tire manufacturers don't care then why do they come out with a new bleeding edge tire every year or two? The rating system is entirely self reported and down at the 200 TW range they are getting very very sketchy about their honesty. There should be some sort of way to standardize the ratings but honestly I don't see it happening any time soon.

A handful of the tire makers are each making ONE tire like this.

Of all the tires being made that are covered by the tire ratings, autocross tires represent a tiny part of that- like sports cars do relative to the rest of the market.

But even smaller than that- since the number of autocrossers out that really matter for these tires is probably less than 20,000.

alfadriver wrote: The wear rating war seems to be just as easy to game- it won't be long until cars will have to be trailered to events with 200 wear ratings.

Street class cars are being trailered now … lots of Street class (and ST) trailer their tires to events … your day would be sorely ruined if you had a puncture on the way to an event … especially if a big time, SRSBZNS, event … and any/most of the championship contenders (Nationals) will have fresh tires for then

Umm, tire treadwear ratings are not an industry thing, they are a federal thing.

Go read through this http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=3753c68825b49b8421db35c49dc7db28&mc=true&node=se49.7.575_1104&rgn=div8

Then look here for the test procedure http://www.nhtsa.gov/DOT/NHTSA/Vehicle%20Safety/Test%20Procedures/Associated%20Files/TP-UTQG-W-01.pdf

The only problem is that, like everything else that is regulated on cars, they are self certified. NHTSA has better ways to spend their money than to verify that the 200tw tire group is accurately reporting their durability (like on stuff that could cost lives), so they can get away with it. Worst case they have to recall the tires, but more likely it would be considered a mis-labeling and they could get away with giving a partial refund because the tires don't last as long.

The manufacturers can be confident that the handfull of tires tested per year by NHTSA isnt likely to include a low production max sports tire like the 200tw stuff.

There are a lot of people going around and repeating misinformation on it.

Now, a way to possibly get some clarity is if a bunch of people start complaining through https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/ that the tires are not lasting as long as they should. If they get enough complaints, it might trigger an investigation and might make them look at a specific tire, but even then, it might not likely happen because they have safety issues that are more pressing to investigate.

wbjones wrote:

alfadriver wrote: The wear rating war seems to be just as easy to game- it won't be long until cars will have to be trailered to events with 200 wear ratings.

Street class cars are being trailered now … lots of Street class (and ST) trailer their tires to events … your day would be sorely ruined if you had a puncture on the way to an event … especially if a big time, SRSBZNS, event … and any/most of the championship contenders (Nationals) will have fresh tires for then

That's not new. It was certainly very common at SCCA autocross Divisionals and Nationals in the '70s & '80s.

One guy I knew couldn't afford to do much to his box stock vette. But he worked for U-Haul and could borrow their trailer rental retrieval trucks. So he'd take the license plate off his vette and bring it to the autocross hanging on the back of the retrieval truck like it was a rental trailer.

Total prep for autocross was 1. remove license plate and pulley the car off the ground & 2. bring an air drum to jack tire pressures.

No, he never did really well. But it made him feel like a true competitor!

Apexcarver wrote: There are a lot of people going around and repeating misinformation on it. Now, a way to possibly get some clarity is if a bunch of people start complaining through https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/ that the tires are not lasting as long as they should. If they get enough complaints, it might trigger an investigation and might make them look at a specific tire, but even then, it might not likely happen because they have safety issues that are more pressing to investigate.

Thanks for the clarification, but it still is industry wide- just focused on the ones who sell in the US.

As for people complaining about wear- well, for autocrossers who complain that the wear rating is low- all of them are not going to be listened to. They abuse the tires. The only possibility of anything useful happening is that the non-autocrossers who buy this start complaining, and that their complaints are brushed aside via an "abuse" excuse.

Otherwise, the test and procedure isn't going to change- unless there is a major issue with the rating for a large part of the tires used, and that trend is across multiple manufacturers.

This isn't like crash or emissions ratings that there is a legal standard that they are required to meet- just a system of wear rating for consumer information. (right?)

well, aren't the new 200TWs still in the $150 per tire zone while r-comps are in the $300 per tire zone?

The game may not have changed in feel but that is still $600 per set in savings...

depends on size … my 205/50/15's (71R's) were only $100 each and no shipping

In reply to Alfa,
It IS a legal standard and that is the text from the Code of Federal Regulations. Just probably not a standard that the Fed will throw resources at enforcing as much as they do for crash/emissions. Mission one is safety after all and pollution is coming in at number two.

This was not a difficult outcome to predict, as many of us did when they announced the rules. In the end, you are always going to need a second set of wheels and tires, and to buy tires on a regular basis if you want to win at a top level. Eventually we will end up where the R-Comps left off. It's the way racing works. I would go out on a limb and say the current crop of street tires are better than R-Comps 20 years ago.

easily better … I laughingly call the Bridgestone RE71R's Ho-Ho's with tread … they out shine last yrs "cheater" tire (the Toyo R1R 195/50/15) by so much it makes you wonder why you praised them so, and why everyone that couldn't run them want them put on the seldom used exclusion list

The RE71Rs are the hot tire even here in San Diego I have not heard the Rival S being better in the hot