Automated Manual Transmissions...

Suck. At least the one in the new Focus does. Pretty nice car otherwise, though.

bravenrace wrote: Automated Manual Transmission

does not compute...

Does Compute.

My Fiesta has one. I like it. It has addaptive programing.

with the new cafe ratings coming online in the next ten years.. we might start seeing manuals again. As the article stated about the new ford dual clutch.. it's lighter with less parasitic loss.

Our smart Fortwo has a 5 speed manual--no clutch peddle. Uses Mercedes Autostick. Shifts nicely, but (and this is big) you MUST lift the throttle just a bit during the shift to keep things smooth. Otherwise it feels like a 15 year old learning to drive a stick. I believe it's because the computer has to fully disengage the clutch to make the shift. Once accustomed to it it's a fun car to drive. 1800 lbs and 70 Hp. Can you say A1 VW?

Having driven a 2012 Focus with the PowerShift this weekend I liked the idea.

But I did not like the "shift it yourself" implementation. Give me some paddles or a stick to move, not some button on the shift lever.

Also I thought the shifts were kind of "soft" probably for economy reasons. Pretty sure that could be fixed with some reprogramming.

vwcorvette wrote: Our smart Fortwo has a 5 speed manual--no clutch peddle. Uses Mercedes Autostick. Shifts nicely, but (and this is big) you MUST lift the throttle just a bit during the shift to keep things smooth. Otherwise it feels like a 15 year old learning to drive a stick. I believe it's because the computer has to fully disengage the clutch to make the shift. Once accustomed to it it's a fun car to drive. 1800 lbs and 70 Hp. Can you say A1 VW?

ahhh! this explains a lot! one of my teachers at school was a big transmission guy, said someone bought a smart in. when he test drove it, he had to ask if it always drove like that (used the same words you did to describe it, too. "someone who doesn't know how to drive stick, driving the car"). I'll have to tell him about that.

If Ford decides to put this DCT into the Focus ST and Fiesta ST, then they need to improve the shift logic and give them flappy paddles. Especially if they decide to drop the manual (which I hope won't be the case).

I hope not too..

I noticed the BMW SMG to be the same way. If you work with it a little (lift) it shifts much better. Until I figured that out I couldn't figure out why anybody would want one. I'll still stay with 3 pedal though.

I had a Focus, loaded, for a loaner when I was in Texas, pep-pe little car, didn't care for the DCT for start and stop but other than that loved the little thing.

Zippy, fun, and I didn't mind using the "slap stick" style selector. (Flappy paddle, slap stick, I don't care as long as I can control it.)

In reply to corytate:

Process goes like this: hit the shifter, lift lightly, and back on the gas. Smooth and quick. Quicker I think than I could shift. I like taking it down through the gears. Wish the wife had opted for the paddle shifters however.

In auto mode the delay is worse, but if you anticipate the computer's shift you can do the lift thing too.

vwcorvette wrote: In reply to corytate: Process goes like this: hit the shifter, lift lightly, and back on the gas. Smooth and quick. Quicker I think than I could shift. I like taking it down through the gears. Wish the wife had opted for the paddle shifters however. In auto mode the delay is worse, but if you anticipate the computer's shift you can do the lift thing too.

The paddle shifters are a big help, especially after the reprogram. Prior to the reflash you could only switch into manual mode with the shifter and then use the paddles. The new program automatically switches to manual when you hit a paddle and will go back to auto if you hold the upshift for 5 seconds. Its a little thing but made a big difference when you are loping along the highway in auto and want a quick downshift to pass.

manual transmissions are supposed to use an H pattern shifter that does all the work and have a real clutch pedal on the floor.. no exceptions.. because, really, what's the point of having a manual trans that isn't a manual?

novaderrik wrote: manual transmissions are supposed to use an H pattern shifter that does all the work and have a real clutch pedal on the floor.. no exceptions.. because, really, what's the point of having a manual trans that isn't a manual?

Getting the same inefficiencies as a manual instead of the losses of an auto and having the option to give yourself a break if you are stuck in traffic.
Although I just moved back to a "real" manual for my new DD I'd have gone with an automated manual again if I could have due to my commute.

I'd like to try a dual-clutch setup. The manual modes on real automatics (read: those with a torque converter) leave me seriously wanting, but I understand the numerous advantages of having a computer do the clutchwork for you.

I drove a 2011 Audi A4 Sport (2.0T, Sport Pack, better suspension/seats) with the flappy paddles very recently. Nice car but frustrating in the extreme! The gearbox (I dunno if it's single or dual clutch) shifted well enough, but it would upshift before redline in manual mode (WTF, before redline?!?), would revert to auto mode if you haven't shifted lately, and wouldn't downshift until it was damn well good and ready. After about 5 minutes I gave up and let my brother-in-law finish the drive.

I don't care how cool it is, how nice the auto option is, or how fast it shifts; if it doesn't do what I want, when I want, it's stupid. Give me a real manual trans with a pedal that I can control myself.

I should have clarified that I was talking mostly about using it in the auto mode. This trans NEVER knows what gear it wants to be in. And have you ever been in the situation where you needed to change lanes from a stand still and do it quickly? I almost got nailed the first time I tried that, as the trans is so slow to react. Then there's the bucking and surging. It may or may not be a good idea to replace the torque converter with an automated clutch, but the one in this car appears to me to have been released before it's time.

So are we talking about manually shiftable autos or robotized manuals? Because manually shiftable autos generally suck and robotized manuals are generally OK.

vwcorvette wrote: Our smart Fortwo has a 5 speed manual--no clutch peddle. Uses Mercedes Autostick. Shifts nicely, but (and this is big) you MUST lift the throttle just a bit during the shift to keep things smooth. Otherwise it feels like a 15 year old learning to drive a stick. I believe it's because the computer has to fully disengage the clutch to make the shift. Once accustomed to it it's a fun car to drive. 1800 lbs and 70 Hp. Can you say A1 VW?

You'd think that the drive by wire controller would know it needs to lift the throttle - that was supposed to be the hallmark of the Motronic version that Smart used, intelligent throttle control...

MadScientistMatt wrote:

vwcorvette wrote: Our smart Fortwo has a 5 speed manual--no clutch peddle. Uses Mercedes Autostick. Shifts nicely, but (and this is big) you MUST lift the throttle just a bit during the shift to keep things smooth. Otherwise it feels like a 15 year old learning to drive a stick. I believe it's because the computer has to fully disengage the clutch to make the shift. Once accustomed to it it's a fun car to drive. 1800 lbs and 70 Hp. Can you say A1 VW?

You'd think that the drive by wire controller would know it needs to lift the throttle - that was supposed to be the hallmark of the Motronic version that Smart used, intelligent throttle control...

They actually do. But this whole thing has shown a rather dirty little secret.... people who drive manuals don't shift nearly as fast as they think they do.

Spark slows the engine a lot faster than the throttle does, and most also turn fuel off at the same time- which makes it hard to turn back on when torque matching.

But it's pretty amazing to understand how quick some autos do the change, and how much the natural "slush" in the trans smooths things out to allow even quicker shifts.

Oh, and for all but some of the earliest auto-shifting manuals- it's not the gear change that's the problem (the dual clutch set ups allow two gears to be engaged at the same time, all the time), its the change in engine speed to speed match that's the one of the main hard parts. (the other being a really smooth launch, AND a creep function for the masocists).

Not sure where this will be going, though.

I have never understood why people complain about driving a manual to commut.

In reply to 93EXCivic:

I never really understood why "drivers" seem to think that people get something out of driving a manual, when autos are quite a bit easier for the average driver.

alfadriver wrote: In reply to 93EXCivic: I never really understood why "drivers" seem to think that people get something out of driving a manual, when autos are quite a bit easier for the average driver.

Because a proper manual is more fun. I mean those flappy paddle gearboxes are fun for a few minutes and then it wears off and I want my third pedal back. I have had have an argument with many of my engineering friends that just because something makes a car faster it doesn't mean it is a better car.