Hal wrote: Having driven a 2012 Focus with the PowerShift this weekend I liked the idea. But I did not like the "shift it yourself" implementation. Give me some paddles or a stick to move, not some button on the shift lever. Also I thought the shifts were kind of "soft" probably for economy reasons. Pretty sure that could be fixed with some reprogramming.
You should try the low(L). Makes it more fun.
One of my big beefs with manually shifting an automatic is the lock up clutch that you can't control, and that most don't have the same amount of engine braking as a manual, which does matter on a track or autocross course. I'm assuming that an automated manual doesn't have a lock up clutch? Isn't the big advantage of this system that it's locked all or more of the time than a lock up torque converter?
I'd like to drive a manual trans Focus. Other than the center console beating up my leg, the weird powder blue gauge needles, and the totally confusing center stack controls, it was a pretty nice car. Seats are great, NVH is awesome, it rides nice but still corners with confidence - Nice car, just needs a few tweaks. Oh, and a three door hatchback. 
93EXCivic wrote: Because a proper manual is more fun. I mean those flappy paddle gearboxes are fun for a few minutes and then it wears off and I want my third pedal back. I have had have an argument with many of my engineering friends that just because something makes a car faster it doesn't mean it is a better car.
I agree with you there.. as BMW learned with the last M5. Part of the joy of owning such a beast is becoming part of the car.. and the third pedal and manual shifts are an integral part of becoming part of the machine
It's a manual transmission with a clutch or two. It does everything a three pedal does except that the computer is doing all of the mental work. Funny, my leg never touches the center console in my Fiesta, in daily driving.that is.
In reply to iceracer:
I'm talking about a Focus, not a Fiesta.
93EXCivic wrote:alfadriver wrote: In reply to 93EXCivic: I never really understood why "drivers" seem to think that people get something out of driving a manual, when autos are quite a bit easier for the average driver.Because a proper manual is more fun. I mean those flappy paddle gearboxes are fun for a few minutes and then it wears off and I want my third pedal back. I have had have an argument with many of my engineering friends that just because something makes a car faster it doesn't mean it is a better car.
To you, yes. To me, yes.
To 90% of the buying public, no, it's not fun. For virtually all drivers, cars are either an appliance that gets you from A to B, or a status symbol. The entertainment drivers are very few and far between.
alfadriver wrote:93EXCivic wrote:To you, yes. To me, yes. To 90% of the buying public, no, it's not fun. For virtually all drivers, cars are either an appliance that gets you from A to B, or a status symbol. The entertainment drivers are very few and far between.alfadriver wrote: In reply to 93EXCivic: I never really understood why "drivers" seem to think that people get something out of driving a manual, when autos are quite a bit easier for the average driver.Because a proper manual is more fun. I mean those flappy paddle gearboxes are fun for a few minutes and then it wears off and I want my third pedal back. I have had have an argument with many of my engineering friends that just because something makes a car faster it doesn't mean it is a better car.
Hopefully with gas prices on the rise there will be more manual cars built, at least I hope so.
In reply to alfadriver:
The thing is I have never talked to anyone who has driven a manual who doesn't think it is more fun.
In reply to Rusted_Busted_Spit:
I doubt it. Maybe they will precieve them to be better, but if we as an industry can deliver, well- given equal or very slightly less economy, the masses will choose autos.
In reply to alfadriver:
Besides, some cars are now getting better mileage with an auto than a manual, so the gas mileage rationale may not work much longer.
93EXCivic wrote: In reply to alfadriver: The thing is I have never talked to anyone who has driven a manual who doesn't think it is more fun.
And how many of them are car people? Real car people- not the pretend ones. and how many of them buy new cars?
The industry has been selling less than 10% manuals for close to a decade now, here in the states. Is it that hard to think that MOST, and I mean most by a 9:1 ratio, don't want manuals? Of those 9, what tiny percentage really care about having fun driving? Heck, of the one, how many of those REALLY have fun driving, or are they convinced that it's better for different reasons.
Here's something to consider- on a normal day- for my 35 mile commute, I shift less than 40 times. When I drive our Edge, I surely don't miss shifting.
I can't tell you how many times I've read here and miata.net how great manuals are for one reason or another. And that their evidence of mass appeal is talking to friends. But numbers don't lie. They just don't sell.
mad_machine wrote:93EXCivic wrote: ...flappy paddle gearboxes are fun for a few minutes and then it wears off and I want my third pedal back.I agree with you there.. as BMW learned with the last M5. Part of the joy of owning such a beast is becoming part of the car.. and the third pedal and manual shifts are an integral part of becoming part of the machine
What BMW learned with the last M5, M3, & M6 was that SMG wasn't a fully-baked technology. The twin-clutch units in the newer cars are really, really good - even when on track or autocrossing.
A clutch pedal is essential for hooning, but a the DCT would work well for me the other 75% of the time I'm driving.
In reply to nderwater:
Which brings us back to the point of my post. The unit in the new Focus IMO stinks.
nderwater wrote:mad_machine wrote:What BMW learned with the last M5, M3, & M6 was that SMG wasn't a fully-baked technology. The twin-clutch units in the newer cars are really, really good - even when on track or autocrossing. A clutch pedal is essential for hooning, but a the DCT would work well for me the other 75% of the time I'm driving.93EXCivic wrote: ...flappy paddle gearboxes are fun for a few minutes and then it wears off and I want my third pedal back.I agree with you there.. as BMW learned with the last M5. Part of the joy of owning such a beast is becoming part of the car.. and the third pedal and manual shifts are an integral part of becoming part of the machine
Not only that.. but the engineers at BMW were surprised that so many people demanded a true manual transmission. They had gotten so involved with making the car as fast as possible.. that they had forgotten a part that made it fun
In reply to mad_machine:
uh, it aint the engineers that are suprised- that would be the marketing guys. If the engineers are told to do something, they generally just do that. If that means making an i-drive system that is, welll...., they do.
And I would be interesed to see the real sales numbers for BMW. I see them as one of the greatest pousers cars of all time. Just having one is enough.
"They had gotten so involved with making the car as fast as possible.. that they had forgotten a part that made it fun."
Tell that to Ferrari and Lamborghini 
At least Porsche is still offering a manual, at least on their sports cars.
After 20+ years and hundreds of thousands of miles of driving, I prefer manual gear boxes, even slow in traffic clogged commutes. I have owned cars with automatics. What I find, particularly at the end of long workday, is that coordinating throttle, clutch and selecting gears keeps me more alert and engaged as a driver. When I drive an automatic, I tend to get distracted, sleepy or lost in my own thoughts much more easily.
My other complaint with automatics when I lived in the snow belt was that a manual was a lot easier for me when getting started and moving along on slippery surfaces. Maybe the newest generation of twin clutch automatics are better than those available in the dark ages when I learned to drive.
alfadriver wrote: And I would be interesed to see the real sales numbers for BMW. I see them as one of the greatest pousers cars of all time. Just having one is enough.
There is a reason I prefer my 318ti. It makes no excuses about that it is
alfadriver wrote: its the change in engine speed to speed match that's the one of the main hard parts. (the other being a really smooth launch, AND a creep function for the masocists).
Hold on - People think that an auto creeping forward is a good thing? THat's now a feature? berkeley.
bravenrace wrote: In reply to iceracer: I'm talking about a Focus, not a Fiesta.
Bsically the same transmission . The console depends on how you sit in the car. OK, I haven't sat in a Focus yet, they could be differnt.
I learned to drive on manual transmissions, drove them most of my driving life. 3 spds, 4 spds, 5 spds. So when I was going to order my Fiesta , naturally it would be a 5 spd. but I had been reading up on the Powershift and the dealer let me take one for an hour. I lked it and that is what I got and I am not sorry. Maybe it is old age catching up with me.
DILYSI Dave wrote:alfadriver wrote: its the change in engine speed to speed match that's the one of the main hard parts. (the other being a really smooth launch, AND a creep function for the masocists).Hold on - People think that an auto creeping forward is a good thing? THat's now a feature? berkeley.
It's a real debate. Customers with autos do expect them to creep, since that's what they do. Not an easy thing to do with a dry clutch.
Lets put it this way- it's taken me a LOOONNNGGGG time to realize that I am not even close to 99.9% of buyers of new cars.
To me, that's one of the most annoying traits of an automatic.
Quick question, how many miles does the clutch last on an automated manual? Is it more expensive or difficult to replace than the clutch on a traditional manual?
iceracer wrote:bravenrace wrote: In reply to iceracer: I'm talking about a Focus, not a Fiesta.Bsically the same transmission . The console depends on how you sit in the car. OK, I haven't sat in a Focus yet, they could be differnt.
The trans sucks and they are two completely different cars. I don't hit my leg on the center console of my CRV either.
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