As is my custom, I've found myself in a mental conundrum of my own making. I plan on getting back into autoX and time trails next season. Nothing too big, just local competition in power-to-weight ratio based classes.
I currently have an E82 BMW 128i 6MT that I was planning on using. The car has some mild street based mods- a bit of extra power and street oriented suspension setup. On the street it drives beautifully, but I feel that if I start competing, a lot of the street friendly parts will end up being removed and replaced by things that are more track oriented.
So, I'm at a bit of a crossroads: before I decide to start dropping money on more expensive race car parts for the 128i, I wanted to consider other viable cars of comparable value as well. In my pondering, I've discovered that for the money I can likely sell the 128i for (probably somewhere around $12,000 or so), I can likely pick up a first gen 2.0L BRZ/FR-S/86 twin. I figure that before I started throwing big money towards pricey coilovers, wide wheels/sticky tires, an LSD, etc, I should at least consider alternatives, if I'm going to be spending the money anyway.
For reference, I already have a daily use street vehicle (Mazda 3 Turbo) and a weekend fun street car (AP2 S2000). I've considered tracking the S2000, but it's a very nice, relatively low-mileage example that I don't want to ruin or risk putting into a wall on track. I wouldn't mind using a 2nd, "rougher condition" S2000 for track work, but they're still pretty pricey and the ones that do fall into this price range might cost me a small fortune trying to nurse them back to health.
I have a preference: relatively lighter weight (the 128i is about as heavy as I'm willing to pay for consumables for), RWD, naturally aspirated, manual transmission.
I've considered another NC Miata on more than 1 occasion, but for the life of me, they don't seem to be competitive in most leagues/classes without spending a boatload of money, which is a damn shame, as I enjoyed my last NC.
When it hit me that I could replace the 128i with a twin, I figured I would pick the brain of the hive to see what we think about replacing the little BMW with a Toyabaru.
Pros of keeping the 128i:
-I could be wrong, but I feel like the N52 is likely more robust than the FA20 under stress.
-The N52 has loads more torque.
-If I blow a motor, N52's are dirt cheap (around ~$1200 on eBay, less at a local junkyard) and highly plentiful.
-I already own the car- no having to buy/sell anything, no paying taxes, etc.
-Due to parts sharing with the E90/E92, certain types of parts are fairly plentiful.
-I've replaced every maintenance item on the car and am very familiar with it. It will likely run without major fault for years.
-It would likely be the more comfortable car going back and forth to events.
-I have a sneaking suspicion that due to the extra power, it would likely be the better TT car on certain tracks.
-Hydraulic steering.
Cons of keeping the 128i:
-She's a wee bit on the heavy side (~3200 lbs).
-Not a lot of room in the fenders for wide, meaty tires.
-BMW tax is a real thing.
-While not terrible, this car certainly wasn't engineered to be easy to wrench on.
-The aftermarket isn't terribly big compared to more commonly used track cars.
-Must figure out how to toggle off all electric nannies for track work (I know its possible, I just haven't dug into it yet)
-Some parts specifically for the 1-series are getting tougher to find (I have x2 1-series coupe seat belt retractors in the garage that I don't plan on selling as they were tough to source- the hoarding has begun!)
-Less people racing them= less of a knowledge base for when problems arise.
-Higher likelihood of electrical gremlins or random interior leaks popping up.
-It will likely make for a slower autoX car due to the extra weight and higher center of gravity.
Pros of getting a twin:
-Lightweight (2700-2800 lbs)
-They seem a bit more straightforward to wrench on.
-Lower center of gravity.
-Extremely low 0.27 drag coefficient (helpful at higher speeds).
-Giant aftermarket.
-Lots of folks with experience racing them= higher likelihood of sourcing knowledge if/when I run into issues.
-The oldest twins are still newer than my 128i (2008).
-OEM LSD (even if it's not optimal).
-They're seemingly more track oriented out of the box, with plenty of places to be competitive.
Cons of getting a twin:
-Motors for these cars on eBay are pricier than I realized (average around ~$4000).
-What torque?
-Power potential is substantially lower than N52 without heat-adding forced induction.
-New-to-me car= potential for new-to-me problems.
-Likely unknown maintenance history= starting over from scratch again.
-It's a Subaru. To me, that's a strike against it.
Both cars have similar storage space for tires/tools/overnight bags, with the edge going to the BMW. Both cars have strut-based front suspensions that need some work to get camber where you want it. Subjectively, I find them both to be good looking cars. The BMW sounds much better, but for a track oriented car, I'm not sure I care.
What does the hive think?
Is the Toyobaru a better-performing car with more potential? Yes. Is it worth switching over from the 128i? Depends on how much you value the performance and just how much of its mod potential you want to exploit - it has a lot for a car in its price range, but your aims could still easily exceed the level of performance it makes sense to mod one to, especially in the engine department.
You'll save a bit on consumables due to the lighter weight and somewhat lower (but by no means absent) rich guy tax on Toyobaru parts. They are almost as simple and easy to work on as a '90s car. But the engine is fragile and needs about $1k in mods to most likely survive track use, and one part of the car that is low on potential is the engine. If you try to put 300ft-lbs through a stockish FA20 bottom end in any way, it will lunch itself, so if you're thinking about buying one and eventually modding it to Corvette levels of performance, it would be cheaper and easier to just buy a Corvette. You can drive the car to stay above the stock torque dip, or apply the usual exhaust mods + reflash to fill it in and somewhat cheaply increase torque half way to stock FA24 levels without any loss of reliability. Then you could consider cams and intake mods for some more power, and then you get into the costly and/or risky zone where it frankly doesn't make sense to mod one of these engines, and I think boosting an FA20 in general brings it at least up to the edge of that zone.
One major issue to look out for is the abnormally, startlingly high cost of insuring one of these things, they're the most crashed car in the world. And if you do damage one, they're a modern car with modern car lights and safety systems, which can be a real "we're not in Kansas anymore" moment budget-wise if you haven't dealt with a car that's bristling with consumable safety devices and that has a part that costs as much as a new game console + big screen TV padding each corner.
In terms of sound, with the Toyobaru you can pick equal-length or unequal-length headers to choose between ordinary I4 sound or Subie rumble respectively. Equal length headers will give slightly better performance all else being equal.
For tire width, you can get up to 255~275-wide tires with mild fender clearancing/rolling and a careful choice of springs and stops, beyond that you need to start running wild offsets and bust out the Sawzall.
So you want to drive an s2000 like car without driving your s2000?
I vote to sell the 128i, use that money to fund track insurance, and send it with the amazing car already in your garage. Who cares if it's mint, don't save it for the next guy, grow a pair and enjoy it. Not like it's an 86 ferrari afterall.
Otherwise, I would keep and mod the 128i (slowly). One thing I have learned in 20 years of this hobby, the more you trade out cars the worse you will end up from a money and driving consistency standpoint. Maybe if you were trading up to a gt4 but those cars are going to lap so similarly run what you got and try to fight the urge spending money on things that don't make it more reliable, lighter, AND enjoyable to drive.
GameboyRMH said:
In terms of sound, with the Toyobaru you can pick equal-length or unequal-length headers to choose between ordinary I4 sound or Subie rumble respectively. Equal length headers will give slightly better performance all else being equal.
For tire width, you can get up to 255~275-wide tires with mild fender clearancing/rolling and a careful choice of springs and stops, beyond that you need to start running wild offsets and bust out the Sawzall.
I've owned a few turbo Subaru's long ago- I'm familiar with the traditional UEL header sound. It's not a bad tone, but I still prefer the noise from an NA Inline-6.
275 wide tires on a smaller car with only a bit of rolling/clearancing is pretty impressive! On the E82, it seems like the fender roller has to come out around the 245 mark, with a full roll and lots of camber necessary for a 255. Beyond that, the sawzall seems like it has to come out- depending on your class- alternately, you can fit the much wider 1M fenders, but I don't think they're legal for a class like NASA TT5 (even though over-fenders are- but I could be mistaken), and they're not cheap to say the least!
Olemiss540 said:
So you want to drive an s2000 like car without driving your s2000?
I vote to sell the 128i, use that money to fund track insurance, and send it with the amazing car already in your garage. Who cares if it's mint, don't save it for the next guy, grow a pair and enjoy it. Not like it's an 86 ferrari afterall.
Otherwise, I would keep and mod the 128i (slowly). One thing I have learned in 20 years of this hobby, the more you trade out cars the worse you will end up from a money and driving consistency standpoint. Maybe if you were trading up to a gt4 but those cars are going to lap so similarly run what you got and try to fight the urge spending money on things that don't make it more reliable, lighter, AND enjoyable to drive.
You've got it backwards, my friend. I don't want to ruin the S2000 as a street car because I do enjoy driving it [on the street]. It legitimately puts a bigger smile on my face than just about anything I've ever driven. It's also used regularly (in the warmer months) as a date-night car with my wife. I've owned it for ~5 years now, which is by far the longest I've ever owned a car (my previous record is a whopping 2.5 years). I enjoy driving it so much that I can't bring myself to sell it.
I actually have mildly modified it. I actually used to autoX it in CS:
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/ap2-s2000-a-love-letter-and-long-overdue-build-thread/272909/page1/
I never modded it further to run STR, partially because it's just not competitive against the ND in STR and partially because I didn't want to ruin the street manners of the car.
I actually have other plans for the S2000, namely an SOS Supercharger (and maybe a mild, street friendly set of Ohlins), but I want to keep it as a street car- no pogo-stick suspension, no loud single-exit exhaust that will drive me crazy, no gutting the car or cutting up the interior to install a cage, no track-friendly hardtop (I love putting the top down on summer nights!), etc. After 5 years, some extra power (without really changing the character of the car) would be fun, but I want to keep it as a street car.
I love that damn car and don't have the heart to destroy the things I enjoy so much about it.
Otherwise, valid points about being consistent and saving money by keeping the 128i. I've actually been modding it slowly of the past 1.5 years:
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/e82-128i-when-your-projected-track-car-turns-into-your-daily/258441/page1/
^^^For a while, before buying the Mazda, I was using the 128i as my daily.
If this was a thread of, "would you rather buy, a 128i 6m or a BRZ/FRS" my answer would be 128i
In my opinion, the BRZ/FRS is a great chassis in need of a better engine (from a reliability standpoint.) On track, I would have constant fear of BRZ/FRS engine failure.
Hear me out, BRZ with N52 swap lol.
What about buying another S2000 for the track, maybe one already ruined/prepped for that!
Also, drive the 128i as it sits (plus those tires aging out in the basement) on track and see how it does, maybe you love it, maybe it's meh, maybe you'll want to mod it more for that or move on. I bet when you are there you might see another BRZ that might help you form an opinion on whether that might be a good way to move forward or not.
In reply to adam525i :
Can you imagine a K-swapped BRZ/FRS? You'd have a rwd Honda CRX!
John Welsh said:
In reply to adam525i :
Can you imagine a K-swapped BRZ/FRS? You'd have a rwd Honda CRX!
Surely no one would be crazy enough to do that! lol
A Toyota 2ZZ-GE in an FRS for a rwd Celica GT-S? The engine choices could have been so much better!
For the record, I found a 2019 Subaru BRZ Series.Gray 6MT this evening and took it for a spin. I wrote a review about it in my other thread:
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/random-car-reviews-tales-from-a-nut-with-too-much-time-on-his-hands/262322/page3/
While I didn't write a comparison, I enjoyed parts of both cars back to back. Granted, my 128i isn't stock (3SIM swapped & tuned, M3/1M control arms, Bilstein B12's, etc). In the engine department, big shocker, the N52 felt substantially stronger than the FA20. In the handling department, honestly, I'm not convinced there's a huge grip deficit in the (admittedly modified) E82, but the BRZ did feel more planted in the corners- you can feel it's the lighter, lower car. I took my 128i on the same roads afterwards- I likely had slightly more fun in the BMW, but not by much, and I'm not sure it's a fair comparison (modded vs basically stock). But then again, fun doesn't mean much when you're running for time.
I'm leaning towards keeping the 128i, but am still kicking around the idea of getting one of the twins.
adam525i said:
Hear me out, BRZ with N52 swap lol.
What about buying another S2000 for the track, maybe one already ruined/prepped for that!
Also, drive the 128i as it sits (plus those tires aging out in the basement) on track and see how it does, maybe you love it, maybe it's meh, maybe you'll want to mod it more for that or move on. I bet when you are there you might see another BRZ that might help you form an opinion on whether that might be a good way to move forward or not.
lol, while I dig the N52, for a car with a shorter nose like the twins, there's a better option:
https://kpower.industries/products/complete-kpower-86-conversion-package
^^^I mean, it's a $10,000 kit, plus the cost of the motor and supporting bits, so it's not cheap, but it would seem that some of the folks in Gridlife have been K24 swapping their twins to great effect.
Oh I've thought about another S2000. They're not cheap! Even the ones that are beat to hell, high miles, salvage title- they're still more money than I could sell my BMW for. The cheapest one I found locally on FB Marketplace (170k miles, missing passenger seat, test pipe/won't pass emissions locally, salvage title), I actually sent the seller a message asking if he would consider a trade (plus a bit of cash on my end). He declined, saying he needed the cash. I don't blame him, but I've surely considered it! Even though it would likely cost a good bit more to prep another S2000 than it would to finish prepping my 128i (S2000 hardtops and roll bars that go above my helmet aren't exactly cheap! Honestly, nothing is cheap for those cars!)
I'm leaning towards running my 128i close to how it sits right now. To run those aging tires in my basement, I'm going to want/need a set of wider wheels... and to put the car on track, brakes at a minimum (I'll likely end up with a set of 335i/328i calipers)... plus I need to drop the damn subframe to install that oil pan baffle and pull the bumper to throw on that 135i oil cooler I have sitting in the garage. I just figured I would explore all my options before going further down the rabbit hole and throwing more money at the car.
John Welsh said:
In reply to adam525i :
Can you imagine a K-swapped BRZ/FRS? You'd have a rwd Honda CRX!
The fine folks at KPower Industries have already developed a full kit! It's a pretty penny ($10,000), but if you're dead set on a more reliable, more powerful 4-cylinder with a substantially higher level of potential, it seems like the smart way to go.
Judging by what FA20's are selling for, a person could probably sell their stock motor to recoup $3000-$4000, to help pay for the swap.
If I had a beater S2000 and the money to pickup a K24 kit for it (similar costs), that's probably what I would do: sell the stock F20C/F22C to pay for half of the cost to K-swap it. Don't get me wrong, I love the F22C- it's one of my favorite engines of all time, but if you blow one up on track, they're not cheap (they're creeping up around $5000 on average on eBay) and they're getting tougher and tougher to find, whereas K24's are much cheaper and easier to source.
Although if I was going down the path of K-swapping all the things, before I would buy another S2000, I would be looking long and hard at K24 swapping an NC Miata:
https://kpower.industries/products/complete-kpower-nc-swap-package
^^^An NC Miata is 200-400 lbs lighter than an S2000 or BRZ (depending on trim), has double wishbones up front and you get to keep the NC's hydraulic steering! I loved my old NC and would have another one as a track car if there were more places for it to be competitive without spending all the money. While I understand why (to protect the NA/NB), I'm not happy that the NC is one of the only cars specifically listed as not being eligible to run classes like TT6, even though it fits their power/weight criteria (or at least it did last I checked, but admittedly, it's been a while). Either way, in autoX it's not competitive in classes like CS or STR due to the ND, not competitive in SCCA Sport 6 (see RX-8), doesn't have the power to run in TT5 (without a $10k+ motor swap), and they won't allow it into the slower Solo classes like ES or STS, in order to protect the older cars. Damn shame, as I really enjoyed my NC.
roninsoldier83 said:
Olemiss540 said:
So you want to drive an s2000 like car without driving your s2000?
I vote to sell the 128i, use that money to fund track insurance, and send it with the amazing car already in your garage. Who cares if it's mint, don't save it for the next guy, grow a pair and enjoy it. Not like it's an 86 ferrari afterall.
Otherwise, I would keep and mod the 128i (slowly). One thing I have learned in 20 years of this hobby, the more you trade out cars the worse you will end up from a money and driving consistency standpoint. Maybe if you were trading up to a gt4 but those cars are going to lap so similarly run what you got and try to fight the urge spending money on things that don't make it more reliable, lighter, AND enjoyable to drive.
You've got it backwards, my friend. I don't want to ruin the S2000 as a street car because I do enjoy driving it [on the street]. It legitimately puts a bigger smile on my face than just about anything I've ever driven. It's also used regularly (in the warmer months) as a date-night car with my wife. I've owned it for ~5 years now, which is by far the longest I've ever owned a car (my previous record is a whopping 2.5 years). I enjoy driving it so much that I can't bring myself to sell it.
I actually have mildly modified it. I actually used to autoX it in CS:
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/ap2-s2000-a-love-letter-and-long-overdue-build-thread/272909/page1/
I never modded it further to run STR, partially because it's just not competitive against the ND in STR and partially because I didn't want to ruin the street manners of the car.
I actually have other plans for the S2000, namely an SOS Supercharger (and maybe a mild, street friendly set of Ohlins), but I want to keep it as a street car- no pogo-stick suspension, no loud single-exit exhaust that will drive me crazy, no gutting the car or cutting up the interior to install a cage, no track-friendly hardtop (I love putting the top down on summer nights!), etc. After 5 years, some extra power (without really changing the character of the car) would be fun, but I want to keep it as a street car.
I love that damn car and don't have the heart to destroy the things I enjoy so much about it.
Otherwise, valid points about being consistent and saving money by keeping the 128i. I've actually been modding it slowly of the past 1.5 years:
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/e82-128i-when-your-projected-track-car-turns-into-your-daily/258441/page1/
^^^For a while, before buying the Mazda, I was using the 128i as my daily.
Understood. I have never chased classes/podiums so should keep my mouth shut on this one :-). No idea what's competitive....
The NC now has a spec class for SCCA solo/autocross. I'm considering selling my E Street 99 sport to buy an NC
Club Spec MX-5 (CSX)
K-swapped isn't ncessarily MORE reliable, just differently reliable. I am not a BMW fan I say use the 128. Toyobaru's are not a reliable and worry free track car.
Semi-tangential but, having owned 4 of them in various states of modification now, I'm going to give some abnormal advice- with Toyobarus, unless you really want a nice one to daily drive, buy the worst one that has the bones for what you want. The used parts market is ridiculous, I've never had such an easy time selling dumb stancey/cosmetic parts, and you'll generally come out ahead financially if you buy a blown up salvage title '13 festooned with fake carbon junk, sell what you don't want, drop a 2015-16 engine in it with whatever track reliability mods you were going to do anyway, and put the tune on it you were going to get anyway.
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) said:
The NC now has a spec class for SCCA solo/autocross. I'm considering selling my E Street 99 sport to buy an NC
Club Spec MX-5 (CSX)
Well I'll be damned. After all these years, the SCCA is finally creating a home for the NC! That's something to look into!
With the upcoming ruleset (no 5MT Sports without a transmission swap, and no older 2006-2008 non-forged internal engines), it's too bad I sold my 2009 NC2 Touring 6MT a few years ago- it would have been the perfect candidate.
It's interesting that they are speccing Penske shocks. I would have thought they would have required Koni or Bilstein shocks to keep costs down, but either way, it's a step in the right direction.
We've owned all 4 generations of Miata over the years and the NC was always my favorite. Technically our former ND1 was my wife's car (I barely fit in the ND, which has kept me from owning one for years). The NC is the only one I really fit in comfortably, and most notably, it's the one that feels most like the S2000 to me (sans the screaming F-series engine).
I'm really going to need to look into this. Thanks for sharing!
A big pro of the twins for me would be the spec class for them. It'd avoid you going down a rabbit hole of expensive parts.
Both the 128 and the pre-'22 twins run in the same classes for SCCA TT, if that gives you anything to chew on. I think you'll be able to make a BRZ/FRS handle better and be easier on consumables, but the BMW is going to win the power battle and have great brake options and should be able to handle well enough (plus you already own it, which is certainly worth considering).
Driven5
PowerDork
9/4/24 11:58 a.m.
That's a tough one.
The 128i is a good engine but has chassis/electrical shortcomings.
The FRZ is a good chassis with engine shortcomings.
Honestly, you'll probably balk because of the perceived weight concern despite the gap between it and the 128i being smaller than between the 128i and the FRZ, but hear me out... S197 Mustang. Fun to drive. Cheaper than either option to buy, build, maintain, and repair. The 4.0 looks to be TT5 eligible, otherwise can run TT4. All the suspension, wheel/tire, brake, and chassis mods are readily available regardless of engine.
If you really want to attack the power to weight limits, a turbo could technically be used to primarily flatten and fatten the HP curve rather than raising it.
If the S197 enters the discussion, the 05-09 GT is the other platform SCCA has written a spec solo class for. Buy in for a decent example is cheaper than the NC2 prices that I'm watching and the spec shock is the koni sport/yellow.
The link I posted above also discusses the mustangs.
Edit
Tom wrote an article about the club spec mustangs.
Link
JG Pasterjak said:
Both the 128 and the pre-'22 twins run in the same classes for SCCA TT, if that gives you anything to chew on. I think you'll be able to make a BRZ/FRS handle better and be easier on consumables, but the BMW is going to win the power battle and have great brake options and should be able to handle well enough (plus you already own it, which is certainly worth considering).
Yep, they both run SCCA TT Tuner 4 and since they have similar power to weight ratios, mild/moderate modification puts them both in NASA TT5. After looking at results around the country for both, I would be willing to bet that when similarly prepped, the 128i will be faster around most tracks in TT. In Solo, they're both STX cars, but the lighter weight of the twins gives them an advantage in that arena. The classes I was looking to run locally are all power-to-weight ratio based, so it wouldn't matter much... and I agree, the 128i has some great cheap brake options- 335i calipers can be picked up for ~$100 and will give you all the brakes you'll ever need with simple NA bolt-ons.
There's probably no wrong answer here and I'm leaning towards the 128i, if for no other reason than I already own the car... although the mention of the SCCA creating a Club Spec MX-5 class has me also browsing NC2's now- that information really threw a wrench into my gears!
