In reply to Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) :
and
In reply to Driven5 :
Interesting propositions, especially with the addition of an SCCA Spec classes. Although in NASA TT, they don't appear to be competitive in either TT5 or TT4, but then again, neither is the NC Miata. To be fair, I think if NASA ever let the NC into TT6, it would dominate the class and if someone has the coin, I also suspect an NC with a K24 swap would do very well in TT5 and likely GL ClubTR.
The prices on the early S197 is surely very reasonable, as are the much cheaper shocks... but if given my choice, I would still lean towards the NC. I've driven S197's (the last time I drove a 2011+ with a 5.0L and track pack, it was a pretty good time, even if I can't speak to the 4.6L), but I do love driving smaller driver's cars and cheap consumables is also a nice feature.
I might take an early S197 for a spin, just in the sake of keeping an open mind.
Although in NASA TT, they don't appear to be competitive in either TT5 or TT4...
A lack of results is just as likely a lack of effort as it is a lack of capability.
docwyte
UltimaDork
9/5/24 9:02 a.m.
Saw you listed the 128 again. What's your goal? Do you want a track car that you drive on the street? Or a street car that sees occasional track use? Or a full on track car?
I couldn't give up a BMW for a FRS/BRZ. I've instructed in several of them and they're definitely playful cars on the track, but for a street/track car, the lack of quality vs a BMW would really bother me. For an all out track car, or a track car that you drive on the street it still wouldn't be my choice, an E36 M3 would. Those are *awesome* cars that do really well in TT. They're easy to work on, parts are cheap, they make good power, sound nice, and so on.
If you're just doing occasional track driving, the 128 will do that just as well as an FRS/BRZ and be so much better on the street (where you'll spend most of your time)....
Driven5
PowerDork
9/5/24 11:09 a.m.
Quality is not one of the defining features of the 128i either, and it feels rather appliance like on the street. IMHO, even suspension modified it really only starts to show some playfulness when thrown around in a manner not recommended on the street, and otherwise still generically feels modified-appliance like. The only thing I really miss about it is the sound of the I6 through my 135i exhaust.
I've only driven a (not new) FRZ once, which was also while owning the 128i, and I was not put off by the perceived quality in any way, but did notice the dramatic difference in playfulness that extended to street driving too. Much like an RX8, if it weren't for the engine, I'd love to fill the current void in my driveway with one.
For any street use factor I think it depends what someone is looking for...
The 128i is an appliance that can do toy things.
The FRZ is a toy that can do appliance things.
I'll put it this way. I was at PittRace a few weeks ago running the SCCA time trials event there, and I had the only 128i there. Not in class. On the property. That was with Steel Cities running a two day autoX event at the same time.
Was the car fun? For sure. Was it competitive? Certainly not. If you're looking to win, I'd say ditch the E82. If you're looking for an enjoyable time on and off the track, keep the bimmer.
docwyte said:
Saw you listed the 128 again. What's your goal? Do you want a track car that you drive on the street? Or a street car that sees occasional track use? Or a full on track car?
I couldn't give up a BMW for a FRS/BRZ. I've instructed in several of them and they're definitely playful cars on the track, but for a street/track car, the lack of quality vs a BMW would really bother me. For an all out track car, or a track car that you drive on the street it still wouldn't be my choice, an E36 M3 would. Those are *awesome* cars that do really well in TT. They're easy to work on, parts are cheap, they make good power, sound nice, and so on.
If you're just doing occasional track driving, the 128 will do that just as well as an FRS/BRZ and be so much better on the street (where you'll spend most of your time)....
Track car that can still be driven on the street (I lack a tow vehicle and trailer for a dedicated track car- I need to be able to drive it to the track). The Mazda 3 Turbo is a better daily, the S2000 is more fun, and that's not counting my work car that I actually commute in... I'm trying to find a more dedicated use for having a 3rd (4th?) car- namely something I don't mind making harsher/louder and beating up on a track. I just finished up a year long stint in physical therapy, giving my hip/lower back a bit more time to strengthen before any larger jobs on any car I get- trying to avoid re-injury, but after taking some time off, I'm looking to get back on track.
I don't see the point of swapping the E82 for an E36 M3. They're the same curb weight (3100-3200 lbs), make almost identical power stock (230hp vs 240hp), but with the factory 3SIM and appropriate tune (which I have) the N52 makes more power (rated at 255hp), both have similar power potential with bolt-ons. Similar dimensions, similar wheelbases (128i is actually about 2" shorter), similar drag coefficients... suspensions are irrelevant as they get tossed anyway... although I would point out: N52's are much cheaper than S52's and far more plentiful. The E82 also has no rear subframe cracking issues to fix. The E36 does have a LSD and no electronic nannies to turn off, so those are a couple of small wins... on the other end, the E82 is a decade newer. I just don't see enough of a reason to swap them out if you already own one or another.
In reply to Puddy46 :
What class are you running in SCCA, how prepped is the car and how hard were you pushing it?
I know in recent years 128i's have taken home trophies at Nationals in SCCA T4 and NASA TT5. In the past they've also done okay with a couple alien drivers in STX (admittedly it's been a couple years and those drivers seemingly moved on to different cars). The biggest problem I see with SCCA TT rules for the 128i is not allowing an intake manifold swap- which is where the bulk of the power comes from on these cars (either 3SIM or N54). My local SCCA TT chapter just swapped rulesets- ignoring national SCCA TT rules to run a more loose power-to-weight based setup: https://www.coloradoscca.org/racing/time-trials/
If I stick with the 128i, I'll also run in a local autoX league that's PWR based. If I swap cars, I'll reassess.
docwyte said:
Saw you listed the 128 again. What's your goal? Do you want a track car that you drive on the street? Or a street car that sees occasional track use? Or a full on track car?
I couldn't give up a BMW for a FRS/BRZ. I've instructed in several of them and they're definitely playful cars on the track, but for a street/track car, the lack of quality vs a BMW would really bother me. For an all out track car, or a track car that you drive on the street it still wouldn't be my choice, an E36 M3 would. Those are *awesome* cars that do really well in TT. They're easy to work on, parts are cheap, they make good power, sound nice, and so on.
If you're just doing occasional track driving, the 128 will do that just as well as an FRS/BRZ and be so much better on the street (where you'll spend most of your time)....
I wouldn't say the Toyobaru is a bad street car, although it is definitely a toy that can do appliance things in a pinch, and that will quickly be noticeable if you start using the rear seats, but if you don't it will seem just as nice as a 1-series or E36 IMO. The ride quality when driven gently on the street reminds me a lot of a 1-series. The interior is pretty spartan by today's standards but doesn't stand out as particularly cheap, most of the 2.0L models have a 90s-ish old-school interior but I consider that a bonus, the high-spec 2.0L and the 2.4L interiors are much more modern (for better or worse).
The E36 M3 is a similar car in terms of performance, the big differences are that an E36 is bigger, heavier and a helluva lot older, so it will cost more to run on track due to the higher weight and power and is likely to need more fixes just due to age. Parts costs are similar and the E36 has a less explodey engine with a lot more modding potential. Also an E36 would be vastly cheaper to insure.
In reply to roninsoldier83 :
Running in Sport 5. Koni yellows, eibach sport springs, rear subframe bushing inserts, on 235 wide RE-71Rs. Hawk HP+ brake pads up front with HPS out back.
As for effort, I beat my previous personal best by over a second. So not exactly tootling around.
docwyte
UltimaDork
9/5/24 6:49 p.m.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
I wouldn't say the Toyobaru is a bad street car, it's just nowhere near as nice as BMW inside. The quality between the two is nowhere near the same. For a car I'm going to spend some time driving on the street, I'll choose a BMW everyday of the week and twice on Sunday compared to a Toyobaru.
In reply to roninsoldier83:
The 128 is similar to the E36 M3, but the diff makes a big difference. It's been awhile since I looked but E36 body parts were also really easy to find used, in the color you needed. So if you had an "oops" on track and needed a hood, or a fender, it's a whole lot easier (or used to be?) to find those for an E36 vs a 1 series... If you're not worried about that, then yes, totally agree with you. You already own the 1 series, so not a whole lot of reasons to swap to an E36. If you're going to gut the car and cage it, then I'd rather do that to an E36 vs a 1 series
In reply to docwyte :
For the record, the reason I made this thread was to weight pros and cons before starting to dump money into the 128i- one of the biggest mods I would plan on doing would be a LSD in a 3.73 diff. I've been debating Torsen vs clutch in my head for a while- but that's an entirely different thread.
roninsoldier83 said:
In reply to Puddy46 :
My local SCCA TT chapter just swapped rulesets- ignoring national SCCA TT rules to run a more loose power-to-weight based setup: https://www.coloradoscca.org/racing/time-trials/
Nice! I like this a whole lot more than the 'make one mod that doesn't even increase performance and you move up 3 classes' style of the national rules.
In reply to Puddy46 :
It would seem that going by the national ruleset, our cars don't fare very well in Sport 5. However, they seem to have a lot more potential with a few more mods in Tuner 4- although I wonder if the N51 variant is the better choice of car in Tuner 4, as it comes stock with the 3SIM- to which the benefits can be unlocked with a tune (they're deliberately detuned from the factory to match the N52's single stage manifold power output). It's my understanding that the N51 also has a more restrictive exhaust (than the N52), which would translate into even more power unlocked with headers/exhaust (allowed in Tuner 4).
Either way, when the SCCA was still doing 1 National Championship a year in TT, 2021 Tuner 4 results:
2022 SCCA TT National Championship Tuner 4 results:
And to dissuade that idea that the lone 128i SCCA driver was a fluke, 2023 NASA TT5 National Championship results:
These cars are very soft in stock, or close to stock form. The Eibach springs you're running are the same Eibach springs that came with my Bilstein B12's, which have essentially identical spring rates to the OEM Sport package- I feel like they're pretty soft for track work. I feel like these cars need more spring rate, a LSD, all nannies toggled off and most importantly, more power to be competitive. The twins and S2000's are much lighter, both of them have factory LSD's and much more aggressive factory suspensions, but neither of their respective motors gain nearly as much power as an N51/N52 with basic bolt-ons and a tune and their advantages are seemingly further diminished when the E82 gets a real diff and substantially stiffer suspension.
When you start searching out regional NASA TT5 results, it becomes pretty apparent that when all the mods are equaled, BRZ's don't seem to fare as well as S2000's and inline-6 BMW's in TT. If I was a betting man, I would blame their more, *ahem*, limp-wristed motors. I suspect this might start to change with the addition of the newer 2022+ 2.4L twins that got a substantial power boost over the older cars.
I should probably also note that due to their rear suspensions, the twins also take a PWR hit in NASA for their rear double-wishbone suspension. The S2000 and all generation of Miata take the same hit- which, it's fairly rough that the twins take a hit for this one when they're limited to MacPherson struts up front, whereas cars like the S2000 get double wishbones on all 4 corners.
If I wanted to run SCCA TT, going by their national ruleset (that my local chapter ditched), I would start out with an N51 car and mod it into Tuner 4 (basically the same rules as STX). For TT5 or any other PWR based ruleset, either the N51 or N52 would probably work, but the higher compression of the N52 (an extra 0.7 bump if memory serves) would give it a very slight advantage.
Just my own wild speculation and observations.
What all this data shows me is that no one in either Sport 5 or Tuner 4 has actually won the class with a 128i. And looking at the results from all of this year's SCCA's national events shows the same.
Which lends to my determination that if you want to win, the E82 isn't the way to go.
In reply to Puddy46 :
I had a different take on it. The 128i was within a close enough margin where I believe it's capable of winning. It's a less developed, used less often car that's still in the running, barely losing out to E36 M3's that have been raced in droves and dialed in for decades. Both of which are seemingly handily beating the twins despite them being some of the most raced/developed cars on earth...
In NASA, looking at various regional results, most of the fastest cars in each region are either S2000's or BMW's. I would be lying if I said I would rather use my 128i over an S2000- even in nearly stock form, my S2000 would hand my slightly more modified 128i it's ass in either autoX or on track. If money were no object, I would likely have another S2000... with a K24 swap ($$$$$, not for power- but only in case of a money shift on track lol- F2xC engines are expensive!)... and a hardtop ($$$$)... but alas, I'm a lowly peasant that will likely do the best I can in this beat up, sh*tbox BMW.
I suppose I could look into an E36 M3, but the only affordable E36 M3's in my area are all run down, with 220-250k miles on them and would require quite a bit of time, money and effort to get to the healthy running condition my 128i is already in, for what might be the slightest of advantages, but more likely the difference is potentially more related to driver skill or individual setup... before I would bring another old car back from the dead (like I did with my E82), rather than dumping money into an E36 M3, I would just look for a salvage titled S2000 lol. You can buy a cleaner E36 M3 with a solid maintenance history and lower miles, but since they shot up in price, again, I would rather pilot an S2000 for the money- they're 400 lbs lighter, same engine output (240hp in both cars- although the BMW has more potential with mods), MUCH better suspension (double wishbones on all 4 corners), lower maintenance, easier to work on, better/more rearward weight distribution (49/51 stock), slightly more fender room (probably comparable) and Honda reliability. Unfortunately, even ratty ones sell for substantially more than I could get out of my 128i and that's before the mods- mods on the S2K are very expensive to say the least.
After this therapy session of a thread, I think I'm just going to keep what I have and see what I can do with it locally... I've invested too much to stop now. Thank you all for helping me realize that- feel free to send me the bill for my therapy session.
