Bad sportsmanship or poor form? RE: LeMons

What's so bad about that instead of destroying a car?

• Jay Lamm and crew are not in the business of buying a (random number with a dollar sign in front) car, that's not prepared for any specific class, looks like a hunk of E36 M3, is probably more than a little "unsafe," and is not able to be registered to drive on the street, hauling a gazillion miles back to california, and hoping to make $500 off the parts on ebay.

• Watching the cars get crushed (IMO) is part of the show. I can't explain the feeling of getting up on day 2, getting the car all set to go, pounding a couple bloody marys, and watching a huge crowd cheer while a running vehicle gets turned into a pile of yard art.

If reiterating the "NO WHINING!!!" rule makes me a whiner, then call me Whiney McWhinerstein. Them's the rules. Jay will constantly remind you of this rule with a big megaphone throughout the weekend. If you get nailed for an infraction on course, and try to whine your way out of it, you won't be happy with the results.

As far as the "camaradarie" part goes, I hope you can come pound some beers/whiskey/whateveryagot with us, tell dirty jokes, racing stories, and have a blast. Just keep in mind, we might ask you to help us lift a motor out of a car at 1AM, using a 2 X 6 and a ratcheting strap.

Lemons events are races, so there's a certain percentage of the field that came not just to have participate and have fun, but to compete.

It seems to me that the people who have little chance of winning have a ball at the events and fiercely defend the 'stop taking things so damn seriously' attitude of the race.

But the teams teams on the top end of the time sheet have it harder - they have a chance of winning the thing but can't look like they're trying to win it because then they'll be more likely to be penalized or get crushed. It's a fine line that the guys at the back don't see.

CrackMonkey wrote: So? It looked like he was the only one on track with half a clue how to race. Nobody was driving defensive lines, half the cars weren't even running the standard "best line", and a good number appeared to be totally timid when it came to passing. Give me something that proves he cheated - something other than "he's too fast, he must be cheating!"

if "driving a defensive line" includes having to leave the track surface in order to avoid being sideswiped by that car b/c it came into my line, then i suppose i was driving a defensive line. maybe you consider forcing cars off the track to be just "good racing," but i disagree.

also, keep in mind that it's an endurance race, and ANY contact (regardless of fault) can get you 30 mins in the penalty box. why should anyone stretch to make a pass when they might lose all that time (and all those laps) if something goes wrong? you don't make any pass you aren't sure you can make. and there are WAY too many cars on track for everyone to drive the "standard best line." that's a nice concept for track days and driving schools, but not terribly practical in the middle of a pack of 15 other cars. "the line" is where another car isn't.

but like Rob, the cammed 347 w/ the CF driveshaft was my first clue they may have exceeded the budget.

I've never been to LeMons either, and I've got some mixed feelings about it. Instead of airing that stuff out, I'm gonna say this. Before you make up your mind, SPECTATE.

LeMons has managed to go down all over the country, and even though participating is still expensive, non-combatants can get in on the party for something like 30 bucks for the weekend. I don't think that's an accident. I think the audience is important to LeMons, it makes a true spectacle of it.

So if LeMons sounded really cool to you in the first place, but now you're wondering, just go to an event. Talk to people, talk to teams, ask around. Form an opinion from direct experience. Then you'll probably know, for sure, if it's on your todo list.

Don't forget to drink as much as you want.

RobL wrote: You don't take a car onto a track that you are not 100% willing to walk away from. Crushing or not... On the track you have no idea what could happen. Sure you would lose a lot of time and money, but it happens.

There's a difference between knowing that your car might get destroyed because of a driving error (on your part or someone else's) or a mechanical failure, and knowing that it might get selected for willful destruction by a mob (or an event organizer) because they've decided they don't like you for some reason. A big difference.

Watching the video, the other cars aren't even in the same realm in terms of power and grip. Making a pass when you're three wide, and you're on the outside in the marbles, takes huge amounts of grip. Yes, he's got the guts and skill to go there, but between two even remotely competitive cars that pass wouldn't happen. As far as power, he walks every other car in the video. Bottom line, that car is way faster. Cheater? I don't know, I wasn't there.

The siren, well, OK, I wasn't there. But that would be a strong argument for the curse. Also, he seemed to use it to announce, HEY, I'm stuffing my car under you, don't hit me. Gee, that's a nice feature, but it likely pissed off everyone else. But the big thing for me is, frequently he was stuffing the car under someone in mid-corner, in other words, when he shouldn't be making the pass. In those instances, if the other car closed the door there would have been contact and it would have been Leh's fault. OK, it didn't happen, no contact, no foul. But the siren seemed to be saying, I'm coming through, get out of my way. The attitude of it rubs me pretty raw. I understand it's kinda neat, especially since he's eating traffic like Jaws, but it feels bad. If I were owning the track and all the competition like that, I'd try to be extra clean and courteous, and avoid looking like maybe I'm rubbing their face in it.

My $0.02. Take it or trash it, as you like.

David

Jensenman wrote: I know that even with Tirewarmer and his damn blackflags, the Taiwanese National Anthem, wrenching on the car, etc I still had a great time and I'll do it again.

Jensenman, ya gotta share. The Taiwanese National Anthem?

So after contributing to a perceived "us vs. them" argument, let me try to clarify my position a little:

When we brought the Boss Hong to the Challenge, we fully intended on destroying it at the concours. Why would we do such a thing? We only bought the car for the motor, which we had intended to stick in a 1g CRX. Keeping this in mind, we didn't pay the extra $150-$200 to the towing yard for the paperwork that would allow us to drive it on the street. We thought the destruction of the car in front of the judges might score us the "Worst attempt to persuade concours judges," or at least make people laugh, hoot, & holler.

So we had a decent shell with a decent motor that really wasn't good for anything but the Challenge. Knowing that we would be beating her like a filthy whore that owed us money, I put the car up for parts 6 MONTHS BEFORE THE CHALLENGE on turbododge.com, thinking that this was THE place to find anyone who was interested in a 1985 Dodge 600 turbo vert. The deal was FREE parts. Just pay for the shipping. People wanted dumb E36 M3 like speaker covers, which were rotted away/broken. Nobody wanted the seats, interior panels (the ones I spent hours scrubbing with bleach...in the rain...while I had the flu,) dash, glass, hood, lights, trim pieces, etc., etc., etc.

Fast forward to the destruction. There were 20-30 people around the concours tent, as we had been blasting flames through the bull horns, which attracted a decent crowd. After receiving our concours score, I broke out the sledgehammer and said "Anybody want this piece of E36 M3 before I destroy it? Bidding starts at one dollar!"

No one bid a single berkeleying dollar, at which point we beat the living E36 M3 out of the car...then let other people jump in and do the same. Lots of people got in on the action, and had a freaking blast doing it. One of my favorite moments was watching the clown hit the driver's side door, and seeing the 1/2 gallon and 40 hours worth of bondo I'd done on the door come of in big chunks.

Later, at the banquet, everybody and their damned brother came up and did the "I can't believe you guys did that. I would've gladly bought the car and used it for something." The same thing went on on the message board.

A lot of people go through their whole lives saying "I was gonna," including my 8-year-old niece. It's downright annoying.

Anyway, that car gave a lot of people joy, simply by sacrificing it's life for the sake of destructive comedy...certainly a lot more joy than rotting away in a parking lot...then the towing yard...then getting squished for $200 in scrap (at the time.)

The turbo ended up on the s00p3rturd, so a little part of her lives on.

So, while seeing a slew of late 60's Challengers getting totalled in a movie makes me a little squeemish, watching a burning dodge 600...or a mullet-mobile-mustang with thousand dollar headers...or a dime-a-dozen E30 get destroyed in an entertaining manner is just that; entertaining.

If this sort of thing isn't for you, then maybe LeMons isn't for you. That certainly doesn't mean you're "not a car guy" or whatever. There are other venues for cheap wheel-to-wheel racing. Please don't try to ruin the ones we destructive mother berkeleyers like by pushing for rules/format changes, especially if "you were gonna..." do LeMons, but are just looking for some excuse not to.

My $.02.

PS: To all of those who are basically saying "You have to cheat to win, and if you cheat too much, your car will get crushed:" The top honor at LeMons is the "Index of Effluency." This honor goes to a team who had NO CHANCE of winning...not the guy who comes in first. IIRC, it also has the biggest payout.

yep...there are lots of ways to "win" at Lemons.

DWNSHFT wrote: But the big thing for me is, frequently he was stuffing the car under someone in mid-corner, in other words, when he shouldn't be making the pass. In those instances, if the other car closed the door there would have been contact and it would have been Leh's fault. OK, it didn't happen, no contact, no foul. But the siren seemed to be saying, I'm coming through, get out of my way. The attitude of it rubs me pretty raw. I understand it's kinda neat, especially since he's eating traffic like Jaws, but it feels bad. If I were owning the track and all the competition like that, I'd try to be extra clean and courteous, and avoid looking like maybe I'm rubbing their face in it.

+1. it's ne thing to cleanly drive around traffic; it's another to bully your way through it. part of the reason it annoyed people is that they had to watch out for him, and he wasn't returning the favor. no one could close the door on him, b/c that would've put both of them in the penalty box. overaggressive guys like him ruin the fun for everyone else. i am surprised no one just "took one for the team" and put him off...although it likely would've happened on Sunday afternoon if their car hadn't been squished.

they did build a damn fast car, though. if Jay had claimed it for $500, i'm sure he could've sold it 5 minutes later for $1000.

DWNSHFT wrote: Bottom line, that car is way faster. Cheater? I don't know, I wasn't there. Also, he seemed to use it to announce, HEY, I'm stuffing my car under you, don't hit me. Gee, that's a nice feature, but it likely pissed off everyone else. But the big thing for me is, frequently he was stuffing the car under someone in mid-corner, in other words, when he shouldn't be making the pass. In those instances, if the other car closed the door there would have been contact and it would have been Leh's fault.

First, I thought I already established it was a cheater - a CF driveshaft blows that budget right out of the water. And that is isn't the only thing that I saw. There were cams that could be heard and headers that everyone saw when the engine was dislocated from the body. And it was a 4th Gen (1994 - 2004) car with a V8. Yeah - $500 for that car right there...

$500 cars aren't that fast or they wouldn't be $500.

As to whose "fault" an accident is... There is no fault - BOTH cars come off track. So yeah, as Leh dives under you - you have the choice to either hit him and get 30 minutes in the penalty box or not hit him and stay on track. Taking one for the team means losing track time, which for most teams that aren't well off, is what they came for.

RobL wrote:

DWNSHFT wrote: Bottom line, that car is way faster. Cheater? I don't know, I wasn't there. Also, he seemed to use it to announce, HEY, I'm stuffing my car under you, don't hit me. Gee, that's a nice feature, but it likely pissed off everyone else. But the big thing for me is, frequently he was stuffing the car under someone in mid-corner, in other words, when he shouldn't be making the pass. In those instances, if the other car closed the door there would have been contact and it would have been Leh's fault.

First, I thought I already established it was a cheater - a CF driveshaft blows that budget right out of the water. And that is isn't the only thing that I saw. There were cams that could be heard and headers that everyone saw when the engine was dislocated from the body. And it was a 4th Gen (1994 - 2004) car with a V8. Yeah - $500 for that car right there... $500 cars aren't that fast or they wouldn't be $500. As to whose "fault" an accident is... There is no fault - BOTH cars come off track. So yeah, as Leh dives under you - you have the choice to either hit him and get 30 minutes in the penalty box or not hit him and stay on track. Taking one for the team means losing track time, which for most teams that aren't well off, is what they came for.

+1 to all of the above. Pro driver, schmoe driver; seeing that car on the straights...then seeing the headers as it was crushed...then seeing the video where they pretty much bragged about bringing a nuclear weapon to a knife fight, I didn't feel too bad about them getting the curse. That being said, we didn't vote for them.

Keith wrote:

RobL wrote: You don't take a car onto a track that you are not 100% willing to walk away from. Crushing or not... On the track you have no idea what could happen. Sure you would lose a lot of time and money, but it happens.

There's a difference between knowing that your car might get destroyed because of a driving error (on your part or someone else's) or a mechanical failure, and knowing that it might get selected for willful destruction by a mob (or an event organizer) because they've decided they don't like you for some reason. A big difference.

To avoid getting your car crushed can be summed up in 4 words - Don't be an asshat.

Period, end of story. If you don't make yourself known for anything other than being fast on the track (without being an asshat - of course) and partying in paddock, you have nothing to worry about.

friedgreencorrado wrote:

Jensenman wrote: I know that even with Tirewarmer and his damn blackflags, the Taiwanese National Anthem, wrenching on the car, etc I still had a great time and I'll do it again.

Jensenman, ya gotta share. The Taiwanese National Anthem?

The LeMons judges are nothing if not inventive. The TNA consisted of a HUGE Taiwanese national flag on a PVC pipe pole which had to be attached to the car. Let me tell you, over ~50 MPH that was a distractin' SOB with all the popping and flapping. Now, if that wasn't enough we also had to attach a car alarm siren to the car and it had to be going as long as the car was moving. I bet we were nearly as aggravating as the Curse Mustang.

Pic available here: http://jalopnik.com/5199210/ Yes, that's my driver doing his best to punt the CMP Mafia into the woods. IIRC, there's a couple of YouTubes floating around where you can hear that damn siren in the background.

I think this is one of those cases where you had to be there to judge the experience. I've been in 5 LeMons races (Detroit, Thunderhill, Altamont, Toledo, Thunderhill), not one of them was comparable to the other. Between the tracks, the teams racing, the number of cars, the track staff, and Mr. Lamm's attitude, there wasn't a single one of them that I'd say was just like the other one.

Bryce

RobL wrote:

DWNSHFT wrote: Bottom line, that car is way faster. Cheater? I don't know, I wasn't there.

First, I thought I already established it was a cheater - a CF driveshaft blows that budget right out of the water. And that is isn't the only thing that I saw. There were cams that could be heard and headers that everyone saw when the engine was dislocated from the body. And it was a 4th Gen (1994 - 2004) car with a V8. Yeah - $500 for that car right there...

Rob, I was trying to say that since I wasn't there, I can't make an informed judgment about the car's legality. I'm commenting just on what I can verify from the video.

I'm a little confused about one thing, though. The video is from the car that was condemned to crushing but the team pulled it, yeah? That's what I'm going on. Rob, are you referring to a different car that in fact >was< crushed at a different LeMons? From the same team? I just like clarity.

[edit: I looked around some more and this seems to be the case.]

David

Yes, the mustang was from a previous lemons race. I was giving it as an example of a cheating car being driven agressively on the track and that it got the curse. Different car, different team.

OK, so the #32 Mustang is a different team. Thanks, Rob.

To follow up on something above, take a look at two different drivers in the same car:

Leh Keen Driving #32 Mustang

versus Rob Driving #32 Mustang

I don't know who Rob is and I'm not knocking him. But let's allow that if Leh Keen drives a Daytona Protoype in the Rolex series, he's a lot better than average. Keen blows through traffic like confetti while Rob works to get through. No one is pasing Rob, but Keen makes the car look much faster. This goes to show that, especially in the $500 class, it's all about the driver, not the car.

In Rob's defense, his video is from Saturday while Keen's is from Sunday. Rob may have had more traffic to deal with, and by Sunday maybe traffic had sorted itself out a little, or the drivers were more used to looking in their mirrors, or knew #32 was way fast, or all three.

David

poopshovel wrote: I can't explain the feeling of getting up on day 2, getting the car all set to go, *pounding a couple bloody marys*

OK, this upsets me. I like a party as much as the next guy, but if you are actually drinking and racing then you better GTFO. If I saw someone pound one back and hop in the driver's seat he'd have a broken damn leg. There is nothing even remotely funny or cool about driving under the influence, period.

poopshovel wrote: * Jay Lamm and crew are not in the business of buying a (random number with a dollar sign in front) car, that's not prepared for any specific class, looks like a hunk of E36 M3, is probably more than a little "unsafe," and is not able to be registered to drive on the street, hauling a gazillion miles back to california, and hoping to make $500 off the parts on ebay.

I'm not saying buy it. Hell, I'd give it away. I'd just rather see a serviceable car keep racing than get destroyed. Hell, donate the car to whatever team's car died first on Saturday, then they could compete Sunday and we could cheer them on. That would be epically cool.

laz wrote: I may buy that they're running a true $500 car, but they must be doing something that upsets the other teams. Maybe that thing is showing up and racing like SCCA racers?

Seems to me that anyone not driving like a rank amatuer is automatically targeted. Penalizing skill and driving talent?

At least at CMP that wasn't the case. I saw quite a few well driven cars (definitely better drivers than me!) that didn't even get a vote for PC. In fact, the 2008 PC 'winner' was, according to Jay and Co, the most nearly unanimous vote they had ever seen. I don't think they were the best drivers out there (don't get me wrong, they were pretty good though) but they all drove like jerks. I think there was one other contender at the April '09 race but they weren't even close to the Mustang guys in number of votes.

P71's mention of giving the People's Curse car to the first ones to blow up on Saturday is pretty cool. Maybe someone should post that idea on the Lemons forum and see what happens.

OK, this upsets me. I like a party as much as the next guy, but if you are actually drinking and racing then you better GTFO. If I saw someone pound one back and hop in the driver's seat he'd have a broken damn leg. There is nothing even remotely funny or cool about driving under the influence, period.

I couldn't afford to contribute to the entry fee, cage, etc., so I busted my ass, helped my friends put a car together, and crewed for them instead, 2 years in a row now.

I'll withdraw the polite invitation to come have fun with us, and instead politely invite you to kiss my ass...or have fun trying to break someone in our crew's leg. Lemme know how that works out for you.

^^^^agreed. i think that would be fun, and might encourage people to venture further into the "risky car" zone.

edit: was responding to Jensen, not poopshovel.

agreed as well on the "good drivers" point...there is a huge difference between driving well and driving like an asshat. there were plenty of very good drivers at CMP who were invisible specifically b/c they were good. i don't care how fancy Leh Keen's day job is...he mostly drove like a tool. talent != judgment.

poopshovel wrote:

OK, this upsets me. I like a party as much as the next guy, but if you are actually drinking and racing then you better GTFO. If I saw someone pound one back and hop in the driver's seat he'd have a broken damn leg. There is nothing even remotely funny or cool about driving under the influence, period.

I couldn't afford to contribute to the entry fee, cage, etc., so I busted my ass, helped my friends put a car together, and crewed for them instead, 2 years in a row now. I'll withdraw the polite invitation to come have fun with us, and instead politely invite you to kiss my ass...or have fun trying to break someone in our crew's leg. Lemme know how that works out for you.

NINJA HISS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

poopshovel wrote:

OK, this upsets me. I like a party as much as the next guy, but if you are actually drinking and racing then you better GTFO. If I saw someone pound one back and hop in the driver's seat he'd have a broken damn leg. There is nothing even remotely funny or cool about driving under the influence, period.

I couldn't afford to contribute to the entry fee, cage, etc., so I busted my ass, helped my friends put a car together, and crewed for them instead, 2 years in a row now. I'll withdraw the polite invitation to come have fun with us, and instead politely invite you to kiss my ass...or have fun trying to break someone in our crew's leg. Lemme know how that works out for you.

Don't take him up on that offer. I watched his team change an engine Sat night with a 2X6 a strap and four guys. They is BIG!!

They would also probably give you the shirt off their back.....of course it wouldn't fit, but they would give it to you.

Jensenman wrote: P71's mention of giving the People's Curse car to the first ones to blow up on Saturday is pretty cool. Maybe someone should post that idea on the Lemons forum and see what happens.

Agreed. I'd much rather see that than senseless vehicular destruction.