Bar Fight: Foxbody vs Bimmer vs Mk III Supra

HStockSolo wrote:

93EXCivic wrote: IMHO the Supra out handles the 'Stang.

How does the MK3 Supra Turbo overcome the weight penalty to out-handle the Mustang?

With a real suspension.

We're talking a 300lbs or less difference. (1993 SVT Mustang = 3250lbs)

Have any of the "supras are horrible-handling boats" crew driven a mildly-modded MKiii Supra?

This is plainly a case of "RX8 is horribly slow, S2000 is MILES FASTER."

Someone previously mentioned that the MKiv supra was much lighter. I guess if 100lbs = much, maybe.

Yet we don't hear people complaining about how awfully the MKivs handle. Why is this, exactly?

HStockSolo wrote:

93EXCivic wrote: IMHO the Supra out handles the 'Stang.

How does the MK3 Supra Turbo overcome the weight penalty to out-handle the Mustang?

I've got some seat time in an SN95 GT convertible and this thing was not designed to handle well. I know the Supra is carrying some 400 to 600 pounds more than a Fox but without a $2500 trip through the Griggs or Maximum Motorsport catalog I doubt the Supra handles this badly.

I also wonder if the emissions controls on a Supra of that vintage are of a design as old as the Fox/SN95 5.0's. I'm betting not.

I've seen this advertised locally on Craiglist for a while.

1994 bmw 318i with 355 chevy small block and 350 turbo trans power windows doors and moonroof monster tach guages in hood new tires 3500 cash or need 2500 cash and trade worth 1000 6168217706 call or text possible full trade of backhoe or crewcab truck.

I haven't seen it in person. He had an open hood shot up before, and it certainly wouldn't win the Concours portion of the Challenge. Actually looks like he cleaned it up for this photo.

HStockSolo wrote: I've seen this advertised locally on Craiglist for a while.

1994 bmw 318i with 355 chevy small block and 350 turbo trans power windows doors and moonroof monster tach guages in hood new tires 3500 cash or need 2500 cash and trade worth 1000 6168217706 call or text possible full trade of backhoe or crewcab truck.

I haven't seen it in person. He had an open hood shot up before, and it certainly wouldn't win the Concours portion of the Challenge. Actually looks like he cleaned it up for this photo.

If someone in this thread buys that, i will sell you two Supra turbos for $150. Just to complete the circle.

The BMW is going to be way down on HP and probably tire. Is the Mufftang a 5.0 LX notch? shoehorn a ton of tire underneath and go ape crazy.

HStockSolo wrote:

93EXCivic wrote: IMHO the Supra out handles the 'Stang.

How does the MK3 Supra Turbo overcome the weight penalty to out-handle the Mustang?

Weight isn't the only thing that matters for handling.

The numbers I quoted for the Mustang were for the lightest possible Notchback with the 5.0L in STX-like prep. The BMWs are sub 2800 lbs in the same prep. Who knows about the Supras? DSP BMWs make ~250 hp at the wheels.

FWIW: The MK3 Supra Turbo and MK4 Supra N/A are lumped in ESP with the Mustang, so it is probable with enough tire and money...

$2500 trip through the MaxMo or Griggs catalog? I'm further than that and I haven't really touched my front suspension (and that'll likely be another $2k). Gotta remember, fox-chassis suspension was originally designed for the late '80s Fairmont. It never had performance in mind.

That's a big part of why I'm burned out on this car. I'm tired of having to re-engineer every single piece of the suspension just to get it to work right.

First response had it right.

Failing that, i'd go with any 5.0-swapped e36, followed by an e36 with the biggest motor you can locate/afford. Even an e36 325is can be pretty underwhelming depending on your expectations.

ReverendDexter wrote:

Twin_Cam wrote: And there's no denying the awesome sound of a supercharged V8 spinning at 5K (if they even rev that high haha).

It does, it just doesn't make any power up there (I've put mine on a dyno, peak power is at 4200 and after that it drops like a rock).

thats the terrible head design of the 302 killing you there. Have heard that going with quality heads makes LOADS of difference, not edelbrock or gt40 though. ford racing maybe? summit carries some.

In reply to ReverendDexter:

I was wrong, okay, I admit that. But here's what I'm thinking for my '95;

http://www.maximummotorsports.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=514_21_89&products_id=222

That's a HD torque arm for $650

And then there's this box of stuff,

http://www.maximummotorsports.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_67&products_id=968

Road & Track box for $2350

So $3k I guess. This is painful to think about...

In reply to corytate:

I thought that Edelbrock had some excellent aluminum head options for the 5.0. Another issue is the intake manifold Ford used, with its stupid huge size and long torque-promoting runners.

hrdlydangerous wrote: The 3-series with the 5.0 swapped in with two turbos from the Supra.

WINNER!!!

A good condition supra is a downpipe, cut out, mbc, rrfpr from 300/300. If you buy all brand new parts that's doable for 500$.

simplecat wrote: A good condition supra is a downpipe, cut out, mbc, rrfpr from 300/300. If you buy all brand new parts that's doable for 500$.

Unless you live in the PRC, which I do

That's really the beauty of the 5.0. I really don't need to touch the motor, but if I want to, most things out there are CARB legal.

motomoron wrote: The BMW is going to be way down on HP and probably tire. Is the Mufftang a 5.0 LX notch? shoehorn a ton of tire underneath and go ape crazy.

Nope. GT 'vert.

...

At least it's a 5-speed and has SFCs and a rollbar

I think that the poopra would be more fun.

HStockSolo wrote: I've seen this advertised locally on Craiglist for a while.

1994 bmw 318i with 355 chevy small block and 350 turbo trans power windows doors and moonroof monster tach guages in hood new tires 3500 cash or need 2500 cash and trade worth 1000 6168217706 call or text possible full trade of backhoe or crewcab truck.

I haven't seen it in person. He had an open hood shot up before, and it certainly wouldn't win the Concours portion of the Challenge. Actually looks like he cleaned it up for this photo.

Awww, come on people! You need to quit this while I don't have the money. Boo hiss.

Fox body.

There is a MKIII Supra in my garage. You couldn't pay me to take it.

BMW is the answer to the original question:

They're competing on grocery runs, multi-hour trips over freeways and/or mountain roads, and local non-SCCA-classed autocross.

I'm guessing the OP isn't building beyond ST* suspension prep levels. On street tires, the BMW will crush.

I already voted with my own money: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtPvf_76Fho

pres589 wrote: In reply to ReverendDexter: I was wrong, okay, I admit that. But here's what I'm thinking for my '95; http://www.maximummotorsports.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=514_21_89&products_id=222 That's a HD torque arm for $650 And then there's this box of stuff, http://www.maximummotorsports.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_67&products_id=968 Road & Track box for $2350 So $3k I guess. This is painful to think about...

Funny part? That's pretty much exactly what I have, I just didn't buy it as that kit, I bought it as the front grip kit, rear grip kit, chassis brace kit, and then a used TA from a buddy that went IRS.

It's light-years ahead of the stock setup, but the geometry is still pretty gnarly up front. With the stock A-arm mounting points, at resting ride height my front roll center might be two inches off the ground. I have to run -2.5 degrees of static camber (that's maxed out CC plates + maxed out camber bolts with my SN95 spindles btw) because all my dynamic change is positive

Right now I'm looking at a front CO conversion ($400 w/springs) so that I can go with tubular lower control arms and a k-member with awesome-sauce geometry (A-arms $400-$700, K-member $650-$900, plus installation 'cause I don't trust myself to be able to align the k-member properly). Still not sure if I want to go MM for all of that or Griggs for the latter two parts (I have MM everything else, but Griggs' shop is < 20 miles from my house since I moved).

In reply to ReverendDexter:

Ugh. Are you racing this thing or just a nice street car? I'm street only and I'm trying to avoid doing such serious work to the front but who knows. Right now the dumb car has a miss / stutter issue when cold that most goes away when the temp needle has moved past the N of "NORMAL" on the gauge, plus a weird vibration that I hope is caused by the exhaust leak induced when the stock exhaust was pulled apart a couple weeks ago when I did an R&R on the throw out bearing...

Lots of nonsense for such an "easy car to work on".

Mine is pretty much AX only at this point. I'm trying to change that, though... I hate that I have all this time/money/energy in a car that I only drive once per month.

Now, you're in a slightly better position because you have an SN95. As similar as the Fox and Fox-4 are, there's a lot of little differences that make the later car nicer. For instance: your car is designed for those spindles, on mine they cost me ~1.1 degrees of camber (why I need the plates and bolts).

For a street car, you can also avoid most of the whole K-member bit by going to Steeda's taller balljoints. That should keep your roll center up where it belongs. It's something I considered doing as well, but I know I won't be happy unless I do the whole thing. It's why I started this thread... do I keep pouring money into my foxbody's suspension, or do I scrap it and start with a car that already has a competent suspension? After this thread, I'm really starting to lean back towards "bad-ass handling foxbody" over "stockish Supra" or "$10k Bimmer".

Which is good! I think.

Just to put some perspective on the whole must-modify-the-bejesus-out-of-a-Mustang-to-make-it-handle thing, I happen to know that the former National Champion CP car of Darrel Padberg runs a simple MM torque-arm in back and nearly-stock stut geometry with just camber plates in front...I also believe that he runs very high-rate springs and no swaybars. Its painfully simple, not overly expensive, and anyone who has seen the car run can attest to the fact that it works. He's also very willing to talk about what he has, and can be reached through the www.waiautox.org website.

93EXCivic wrote: Supra. Boost is fun and parts are cheap.

Parts are not cheap compared to the Mustang.

That being said I've had two Supras (85 MKII and 93 MKIV) and two Mustangs (95 GT and 2003 Mach 1). I've also owned a BMW, but it was a 633csi. In this case I'd go with the Supra or Mustang, but I think the Mustang is more reliable, easier to work on, and parts are cheaper.....that's been my experience. Both are a lot of fun and very different. I'd probably base my final decision on condition and cost.