prodarwin
prodarwin MegaDork
8/12/24 8:46 a.m.

This is for charging an auxiliary battery for running some things when vehicle is off.

Can someone tell me why I may want one or the other?  A quick read provides me with the following info, but sources seem to just be random internet comments, so I'm not confident in them.

Isolator:
Simple
Works well only with same battery type as vehicle main battery
Relatively inexpensive
Troublesome if you have a "smart alternator?*

DC-DC:
Controls charging rate
Works with multiple types of batteries
More expensive

*what is a smart alternator? 

I'm looking for a compact battery around 100ah.  Any reason not to consider AGM or lithium?  Any other considerations?

Please provide your own random internet comments I can trust :)

Toyman!
Toyman! GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/12/24 8:53 a.m.

Isolators typically do not fully charge the aux battery. 

Instead of doing a DC-DC or isolator, consider installing a high amp solenoid that tie the batteries together when the vehicle is running and separates them when it is not running. I ran this system on the XJ for years with no issue. 

Edit: Something like this. 

Edit again to add better diagram. 

500 Amp Heavy Duty Battery Isolator Solenoid & Relay

prodarwin
prodarwin MegaDork
8/12/24 8:56 a.m.
Toyman! said:

Isolators typically do not fully charge the aux battery. 

Instead of doing a DC-DC or isolator, consider installing a high amp solenoid that tie the batteries together when the vehicle is running and separates them when it is not running. I ran this system on the XJ for years with no issue. 

I may be misunderstading... isn't that exactly what a battery isolator is?

I thought it was basically a solid state relay that tied them together when alt/main battery voltage is above a certain threshold.

Toyman!
Toyman! GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/12/24 9:04 a.m.

In reply to prodarwin :

Sort of. The solid-state nature of a traditional isolator keeps it from passing full voltage to the aux battery. Without full charge voltage, the aux battery never reaches full charge. Most modern aux battery systems use a solenoid or a DC-DC charger to pass full alternator voltage to the aux battery so it can be fully charged. 

 

pres589 (djronnebaum)
pres589 (djronnebaum) UltimaDork
8/12/24 9:35 a.m.

FET-based solid-state isolators seem to have the voltage drop across the isolator down to  0.1VDC or so max.  Old silicone diode based systems had that "traditional" 0.7VDC drop.

This looks good at a glance; Amazon link to a Victron ArgoFET Isolator

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard GRM+ Memberand Publisher
8/12/24 10:24 a.m.

I did the same thing with my truck camper--and wrote about the pros and cons of each, as well as about my smart alternator. It might help you out:

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/project-cars/2001-ford-f-250/adding-solar-and-12v-battery-charger-project-f-250/

93gsxturbo
93gsxturbo UberDork
8/12/24 10:43 a.m.

Okeydokey something near and dear to my heart.

Both DC/DC chargers and isolators do the same thing at the elemental level.  They serve the function of separating house batteries and starting batteries.  But how they do it is a bit different. 

A conventional isolator (solenoid/mechanical switching) keep all batteries (house and starting) connected to the alternator when the vehicle is running or voltage is above a certain point.    As stated they work best when all batteries are the same size/type/age/rating.  Basically you have one big battery bank when the vehicle is running, and when the vehicle is off, the connection is severed, allowing you to drain the batteries you have selected as house batteries and keep the starting battery(s) full.  Advantages are they are reasonably cheap and simple, and the good ones like the Blue Sea isolators let you switch to "start on house batteries" in case your starting battery dies.  The big disadvantage in modern systems is that a conventional isolator offers no step-up voltage, the best you can ever get is whatever the alternator puts out which will leave lithium batteries undercharged.  

A DC/DC charger does things a little differently, the house battery is still charged from the alternator, but the output from the alternator is never ganged to both banks of batteries without going through the DC/DC charger.  The advantage of this is that you can run batteries with different charging schemes (voltage, float, amperage, etc) between your house battery and your starting battery to take advantages of both types of tech, IE you can run lithium house batteries and AGM starting batteries and everyone is happy.  DC/DC chargers are also all solid state, so no moving parts.  They either work or they don't. The disadvantage to DC/DC chargers is they do not let you easily connect ALL batteries in the system to start off your house batteries, you would have to move wires around to do that.   But thats neither here nor there because you can't start off a lithium battery in most cases.  The other advantages of some DC/DC chargers is they also have built in MPPT solar charging and can float your starting batteries off the solar once your house batteries are topped up.  That feature is real nice for storage if you have solar access.  Because DC/DC chargers have the ability to step up voltage to the house batteries to charge them, you can get a full charge of batteries that may require more charging voltage than your alternator can put out.  

A Smart Alternator is an alternator that will decrease output to reduce fuel consumption once batteries reach a certain charge, this is troublesome because the alternator can be functioning as intended and the output voltage is low enough that it won't trigger the "vehicle is on, start charging" mode of a DC/DC charger.  To get around that, a switched signal wire needs to be added to the DC/DC charger telling basically, "Yes I know the voltage is pretty low, but I assure you the vehicle is running and it is OK to charge now" 

Lithium has several advantages and disadvantages over AGM.  

Cost is getting to be close, but lithium will still cost more.

Lithium is 100% safe to be mounted indoors, no vents or any hanky-panky.

Charge and discharge rates on lithium batteries is a lot higher, meaning you can pump 50 amps into them safely and reliably and charge a 100Ah battery from flat to full in 2 hours.  Can't do that with an AGM.  You can also discharge them at a higher rate which is nice if you want to run an inverter or other sustained high load device.

You can't start a vehicle from a lithium battery, at least not a high draw vehicle like a diesel.

Lithium batteries do not perform well in the cold.  Specs vary, but they can not be charged below a certain temperature and can not output below a certain temperature.  AGM batteries will lose amperage and capacity in extremely cold weather but will still perform. 

CyberEric
CyberEric SuperDork
8/12/24 11:10 p.m.

Yeah, 93gsxturbo coverd it. It's good to know that it actually acts like a big battery bank when the engine is running. I'll try that when I use something like an Instant Pot and the sun is not out.

I've got an isolator and it works great for me. I'd recommend it.

House battery is a 100ah AGM. Also has two 100w solar panels connected to the house battery.

The AGM is heavy as hell, but gets the job done. It's also nice to be able to start the car with the house battery sometimes. That said, I would have liked something lighter like a lithium that charges faster. But the cost difference was extreme, esp when I factored in I would need a new solar charger and isolator (my van came with a setup for lead acid batteries, not lithium)

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/12/24 11:32 p.m.

One feature of the smart charging is that batteries seem to last a lot longer as compared to with your basic "slam 14.5 volts all the time" alternators. 

 

Regarding the DC/DC charger's limitation of not being able to start from house batteries.  Why not wire in one of the Ford solenoids in such a way that it can be used to connect the house batteries to the starting battery in an emergency, instead of rerouting cables, usually in the middle of the night in a rainstorm?

93gsxturbo
93gsxturbo UberDork
8/13/24 3:03 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

One feature of the smart charging is that batteries seem to last a lot longer as compared to with your basic "slam 14.5 volts all the time" alternators. 

 

Regarding the DC/DC charger's limitation of not being able to start from house batteries.  Why not wire in one of the Ford solenoids in such a way that it can be used to connect the house batteries to the starting battery in an emergency, instead of rerouting cables, usually in the middle of the night in a rainstorm?

If you are running a conventional lead/acid battery, whether an AGM, marine deep cycle, etc as your house battery, no reason you could not run some heavy solenoids or switches to connect your house batteries to your starting circuit.

If you are running a lithium ion battery I would be hesitant to use it to jump my vehicle unless it is purpose built for it, I would worry about hitting the battery protection trying to start something like a big diesel in 0 degree weather.  

Another cool albeit wasteful setup I saw a guy use was he just carried one of those Noco 120V 10A chargers with the thought being he could just run an extension cord from his inverter (powered by house batteries) to his starting battery should the need arise to self-charge your starting battery. 

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
8/13/24 4:37 p.m.

Wrt the battery, if you need to use it below 34F, lifepo4 batteries either need a heater or you can't use them- charging below that temp will ruin them. So if temp is a factor....

There are some really nice light mini 100ahr lifepo4 batteries out there, and can be gotten for under $300. Compare that to 200ahr for any lead chemistry battery, given how much you can use. 

93gsxturbo
93gsxturbo UberDork
8/13/24 5:02 p.m.
alfadriver said:

Wrt the battery, if you need to use it below 34F, lifepo4 batteries either need a heater or you can't use them- charging below that temp will ruin them. So if temp is a factor....

There are some really nice light mini 100ahr lifepo4 batteries out there, and can be gotten for under $300. Compare that to 200ahr for any lead chemistry battery, given how much you can use. 

That is true, without a heater the lithium batteries do not like being cold.  With a built in heater, they can charge down to -4F, but if you are charging them on solar at that temp forget it as half the energy from the panel is going to go toward keeping the batteries warm.  

You can discharge them without care down to -4F, but once they are discharged they can not be charged up until they warm up, either through their own heaters or a rise in ambient temp.  

If you are somewhere where you are gonna be real cold for a real long time and still want battery power, an AGM is gonna be your honey.  

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