Battery issue (?!) with the Caravan

OEM battery was five years old, as is the van. The alternator was replaced a few years ago by the dealer.

Two weeks ago, the van acted all wonky. Nothing worked, lights flashed and chimes beeped. It ended up that the battery was dead - tested bad, low open circuit voltage and some other stuff I can't remember.

Today I get the call "van won't start, I'm at Target, come rescue me!" and mighty Catywampus and it's $19.99 battery and the $5 jump cables eventually managed to get the big Pentastar started. This may or may not have involved clamping vice grips to the throttle cam to open the throttle hands-free like while starting the van.

We drive it to go pick up the kiddos, never shutting it off, fully assuming that we have a bad new NAPA Legend battery (at $150!!!!) until we get back home.

She was in the parking lot for 1/2 hour. At home, it restarts fine. Over and over. I bought a digital meter so I could do this properly.

12.6V engine off, 12.6V with cables off. 13.8V with engine on. 44 mA with the key off, 96 mA with the key in the accessory position.

Doesn't sound like the alternator, the battery, or the van is bad.

Ideas?

Silverados will have similar issues with grounds going bad.

Hows the battery cable connection on the starter?

Park safety switch? See if wiggling the shifter has any effect?

I suspect this doesn't have a standard key to turn to start? If not, then perhaps its a flaky ignition switch?

It has the ability to use a regular key and a weirdo looking plastic key - both were tried and no difference was noted.

Wiggling shifter did nothing

Cannot get to starter or grounds without digging deep. I have a conference call (because eventually I need to actually work for a living, which is getting really hard to do these days, what with the house falling apart around me and all) I will check afterwards as best as I can.

Having to mess with the throttle cam to get it to start during the jump is the part of this word problem that throws me off. Why would you need to mess with that if it only needed a simple jump?

I assume the actual battery terminals are good, clean, and tight?

KyAllroad wrote: Having to mess with the throttle cam to get it to start during the jump is the part of this word problem that throws me off. Why would you need to mess with that if it only needed a simple jump? I assume the actual battery terminals are good, clean, and tight?

The Honda has a lawn mower battery and my cables suck. I needed more juice I suspect. I could be completely wrong, though.

There is some brownout circuitry in the Caravan that's wonky. So it won't even bother engaging the starter at all unless it has enough volts. No slow cranking, it either starts or doesn't even click. It acted better, but still no turning over after hooking up the cables, revving the Honda and clamping extra-super-tight made it go.

To clarify, when it's undervoltaged, it won't give the fancy key back, it won't turn on the radio, it will turn on the headlights, open and close hatch and doors, it bings and bongs and one of the relays goes nuts.

When I hooked up the cables, that stuff stopped. It took the extra RPM to make it turn over though.

What happened when it wouldn't start? Did everything work good except nothing happened when key was turned?

Sounds like something besides battery. Ground was mentioned....

jfryjfry wrote: What happened when it wouldn't start? Did everything work good except nothing happened when key was turned? Sounds like something besides battery. Ground was mentioned....

See above "acting wonky", no starter engagement, won't give the key back, etc...

45 minutes later, it starts fine...

I'd say its dealership time, the ECU may need some diagnosis and perhaps a firmware flash.

All grounds which I can find are fine.

Drop a van off at the dealer with a "every three weeks it does this..." is a recipe for a $1000 bill and the same problem.

You don't know that, nor do you have time to do otherwise.

Stefan (Not Bruce) wrote: You don't know that, nor do you have time to do otherwise.

I also have $0 essentially.

We just spent all of our money on the house, are well into debt on them in fact, and cannot afford to be without the van for even a day.

I need to do better.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCquoosLUjmO8AUhkrJNL5Dg

Also check the terminals for corrosion.

dj06482 wrote: Also check the terminals for corrosion.

They are essentially brand new and were tight.

Does your meter have a min/max function? See what the minimum is during cranking just for kicks. If the battery is at 12.6 before key-on and falling below 10.0 during cranking i'd say the battery is weak. However it sounds like what you have is an intermittent no-crank condition, not a cranks/no-start. I doubt it is the battery itself as if it's got some internal shorting or external parasitic draw that's self-discharging it to the point that the modules start going weird, it wouldn't really even crank the engine at that point (usually 9.0v or lower) and it sure wouldnt charge itself back up and crank up fine later. It sounds like what you're experiencing is more likely to be an intermittent connection problem. It may be at the battery terminakls, or somewhere else.

Unfortunately it's hard to test this stuff during the times when it's not acting up. If you can get it to start acting all goofy with the key on, turn it back off and go try to check the voltage at the power feed into the TIPM (totally integrated power module, fancy fuse/relay box with BCM type functions built in) and see what voltage it gets with the key off and then how much it drops when you turn the key on and it has to start passing current.

I would also google 'caravan TIPM' in general and see if you come up with some similar reported problems that may have been traced back to that.

Possible that the connections weren't 100% when battery was installed but when you were jumping and futzing you corrected a bad connection?

Not a good solution for peace of mind but all systems go now, yes?

jfryjfry wrote: Possible that the connections weren't 100% when battery was installed but when you were jumping and futzing you corrected a bad connection? Not a good solution for peace of mind but all systems go now, yes?

Anything is possible.

The very first thing I did was verify the issue, and then check the terminals by attempting to rotate them by hand. After that I verified the voltage at the terminals, though at that point I only owned a very old and inaccurate analog meter which said "eh, something between 10 and 15".

I have since bought a digital meter.

Vigo wrote: Does your meter have a min/max function? See what the minimum is during cranking just for kicks. If the battery is at 12.6 before key-on and falling below 10.0 during cranking i'd say the battery is weak. However it sounds like what you have is an intermittent no-crank condition, not a cranks/no-start. I doubt it is the battery itself as if it's got some internal shorting or external parasitic draw that's self-discharging it to the point that the modules start going weird, it wouldn't really even crank the engine at that point (usually 9.0v or lower) and it sure wouldnt charge itself back up and crank up fine later. It sounds like what you're experiencing is more likely to be an intermittent connection problem. It may be at the battery terminakls, or somewhere else. Unfortunately it's hard to test this stuff during the times when it's not acting up. If you can get it to start acting all goofy with the key on, turn it back off and go try to check the voltage at the power feed into the TIPM (totally integrated power module, fancy fuse/relay box with BCM type functions built in) and see what voltage it gets with the key off and then how much it drops when you turn the key on and it has to start passing current. I would also google 'caravan TIPM' in general and see if you come up with some similar reported problems that may have been traced back to that.

The van just drove off with Tunawife and Tunakids after much crying and worrying. I assured her that I could come pick them up if it happens again as the pool is not far and I'm apparently not getting much work done today.

It does have a min/max function. I'll use it when the van returns. Just watching the display it never drops below 11.5 volts during cranking, but it could be missing some data points.

It's not a slow crank. I am suspecting now that based on internal brownout circuitry that a slow crank may not be possible.

I pulled the battery and had Tunakid #2 probe the terminals while I hit the battery with a hammer, and tilted it to all sides and dropped it back flat - no anomalies noted.

You have two separate issues that you assume are related.
1. Junk battery. 2. Dead battery that was successfully jump started. Is there anything that Tunawife could have done (left headlights on?) to drain the battery?
Does the van have an electronic display (or a gauge, ha!) That will read voltage when it's running that Tunawife can keep an eye on? I'm much more suspicious of a no-charge situation (ECM, or something) than a drain while it's sitting.

mazdeuce wrote: You have two separate issues that you assume are related. 1. Junk battery. 2. Dead battery that was successfully jump started. Is there anything that Tunawife could have done (left headlights on?) to drain the battery? Does the van have an electronic display (or a gauge, ha!) That will read voltage when it's running that Tunawife can keep an eye on? I'm much more suspicious of a no-charge situation (ECM, or something) than a drain while it's sitting.

Make no mistake, I am not implying causality, just mentioning all of the past electrical system notes for complete patient history.

Tunawife reports that nothing was left on. Indeed when I arrived at the vehicle, everything was off. Bear in mind that nothing can be on for long; it turns off the lights and interior lights and basically everything but the radio after a minute or so with the key out, and she had the key in her purse.

In the past alternator failure, we did get a warning light, so I know that the ECU is watching for a no-charge situation.

tuna55 wrote: fully assuming that we have a bad new NAPA Legend battery (at $150!!!!) Ideas?

I have seen multiple bad batteries act the same as you're describing. My own car has a Napa legend battery. It has just up and died three times, every two years almost to the day. If the battery is almost new you should be able to get it warrantied.

underpowered wrote:

tuna55 wrote: fully assuming that we have a bad new NAPA Legend battery (at $150!!!!) Ideas?

I have seen multiple bad batteries act the same as you're describing. My own car has a Napa legend battery. It has just up and died three times, every two years almost to the day. If the battery is almost new you should be able to get it warrantied.

The battery looks fine with a basic voltage check. I'm not sure they will give me a new one if they can't find anything wrong with this one.