Though I understand a 2500 is a better built/stronger truck overall it also comes with a pricey licensing penalty in my state. I stick to half-tons because they are much cheaper tags and I really don't need 3/4 ton carrying capacity. A load of mulch sitting on the bump stops of a half ton has worked fine for me in the past, LOL.
The one downside on ditching the Lightning is no more collector tag or emissions exemption.
How much are the tags? In PA it's the diff between $58 or $80. It's not awful.
Judging by his profile, he's in PA. Also, he has the same birthday as me 
My dad has had a series of Tundras in recent years, a '00 that was and is still actually used like a truck, and a '14 that got traded on a '17 last year, both of which were/are just commuters. I'll just speak to the '00, since that's the only one I've driven and hauled with extensively.
The first gens are really pleasant places to be as far as trucks go. Build quality and interior materials are miles ahead of the domestics and I feel like they ride a little bit better as well. It's noticeably less torquey than comparable 5.3 Silverados I've driven, but still makes more than enough power to haul a single car trailer or 3k lbs of top soil in the bed. The size is really nice, big enough to do real truck things while being perceptibly smaller than contemporary domestics, especially maneuvering around a parking lot. It's got something like 140k on it now and has been dead nuts reliable. I know a couple of guys at work too who have over 200k, one I think is even approaching 300k, on their 1st gen Tundras and have reported typical Toyota reliability as well.
On the downside, the brakes absolutely suck. They're marginal even unloaded and borderline sketchy hauling a load. I think they did upgrade the brakes when they did the mid-cycle refresh (forget what year that was, '04 maybe?) so you might want to look for a later truck for that reason.
The other big issue is the whole frame rust deal. Toyota did a massive recall campaign either stripping and undercoating or altogether replacing (depending on severity) the frames under these trucks due to them rotting out prematurely. My parents' truck got the undercoating treatment a while back only to have the frame develop rust holes a year later. Long story short, the dealer ended up repairing but not replacing the frame under their truck and I think the window for frame replacement is now closed, though I did see a stack of frames behind the local Toyota dealer a few weeks back when I was test driving an 86. So, I'd either look for a truck that got a new frame, buy from down south, or smack every square inch of the frame with a ball peen hammer prior to purchase.
I like the GMT800s a lot too, and even attempted to buy one last summer (long story...) The 5.3/regular cab/short bed/2wd combo, while rare, is right quick even with 3.42s in the rear end and I'd much prefer the LS based motors to any other contemporary domestic truck engine. Just my opinion. They all seem to have rocker rust though if they have spent any amount of time in the snow and salt.
Blaise said:MINIzguy said:GMT800 Cons:
- 4L60E suckkks
Why is this such a thing? I tow with my 4L60E. It's got nearly 200k miles, has no problems (original trans, btw), and even with the OE trans cooler I never break 180F.
For light towing or normal hauling (which is typical for a 1500), I don't understand all the hate.
After 7 years of running a chain of 13 transmission repair shops, I don't understand it either. The Mopar's 45, 46, 47, and 48 series transmissions were our bread and butter. With one technician and one builder working in a twin-bay shop i frequently saw $20k/wk in sales from just Mopar from that one shop. 4L60Es were usuallly straight up rebuilds with occasional input drum cracks or valve body sticks. 4R70Ws were usually just straight soft parts.
The other thing to note is that parts cost for mopar trannys is much higher. Out the door, customers would pay about 60-70% more for a 47RE build than a 4R100 or 4L60/80E. I could build a VW 01-series transmission or a Jatco in a Rover or Jag for less than a Mopar.
MINIzguy said:I'm kinda in the same boat. I have a GMT800 Tahoe with the 5.3/4L60E combo. I want something slightly bigger so it's easier to haul lumber and large household items, in addition to towing. Not really considering a Ford product due to the terrible 5.4. I've summed up what I know so far, but can people add on or correct my misinformation?
GMT800 Pros:
- Reliable as gravity
- Easily upgradable for more power/durability
- Easy to work on
GMT800 Cons:
- 4L60E suckkks
- Rockers get eaten up by rust
- Good ones are still expensive, too much for a truck that came out in '99?
so get a GMT 800 HD
4l80 or 4l85 and 6.0 is std - but performs just as averagly as a 5.3
or may be able to get an early GMT900 but likely not a 3/4 ton for that price tag.
rob_lewis said:Only advice I'd give is to hold out for the 5.3 GM instead of the 4.8. Although they're the same and I've seen crazy power made with a 4.8, it my Tahoe it struggled towing a 6x12 trailer at about 3000 lbs. The 5.3 I have now barely makes it feel like it's there.
-Rob
I've had just the opposite with the 4.8. Our truck has the 3.23 and towing in 3rd at 70mph is perfect at 2500rom. towing 5500lbs at 70mph is no big deal. intake and catback have been the only mods (other than an external trans cooler at purchase in 2006).
EDIT: Here it was for 16 nats. Trailer is ~1800lbs, Forte was 2780 and I had another 200lbs of crap with me and my fat butt. Averaged 14mpg round trip.
^^ I was going to say, the difference is likely gearing, not the engine. I wish I had 3.73s or 3.23s, with 3.42s I'm often hunting between 2/3 or 3/4. At 75mph it won't downshift to 2nd, so I try to keep it above that :)
Curtis said:After 7 years of running a chain of 13 transmission repair shops, I don't understand it either. The Mopar's 45, 46, 47, and 48 series transmissions were our bread and butter. With one technician and one builder working in a twin-bay shop i frequently saw $20k/wk in sales from just Mopar from that one shop. 4L60Es were usuallly straight up rebuilds with occasional input drum cracks or valve body sticks. 4R70Ws were usually just straight soft parts.
The other thing to note is that parts cost for mopar trannys is much higher. Out the door, customers would pay about 60-70% more for a 47RE build than a 4R100 or 4L60/80E. I could build a VW 01-series transmission or a Jatco in a Rover or Jag for less than a Mopar.
Thanks for the info!!!
I'm also seeing a $1300+$300 core for a 4L60E from autozone? That's incredible. With 2wd, it would be an easy job. Wow. How much is it to rebuild one?
Aren't 2wd GMT900 trucks below $10K? I know that 4L60E's suck and DOD will kill your children, but I've got 199k on mine withought a hickup including maybe 10k towing miles. Maybe not that many now that I think about it, maybe 5k? So I don't tow a lot. Is that the reason my truck has lasted so well or is it just that the worries are overblown?
Anyway, I can't believe that my truck is worth over $10k, not with the dent in the door anyway, and I have to believe that Texas has 5,000 trucks exactly like mine for sale right now. Come and get one.
In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :
The GMT900s are just dipping into the $8-10k range around here, and even the nicer GMT800s aren't much less than that. Maybe Texas is a bit different, being the world capitol of cheap trucks, but it never ceases to amaze me how well trucks in general hold value.
Well, a lot of it is that 4l60s have gotten better over time, and the older they get the less likely you are to find one that hasn't been rebuilt, etc. I dont think they are that bad in the GMT900 era vs ~98-02ish area, for example. But, the other side of that is if you can swing GMT900 you should really stretch for the 6spd auto because the jump from 4spd auto to the newer transmissions was really the big technology leap in that era of truck.
If i was getting a 'modern' GM truck that wasn't a 6spd auto i'd be trying real hard to buy the clone of Bobzilla's truck.
Up here in New England, the climate is really harsh on full-sized trucks of this vintage. None of them seem to hold up. Here's what I've seen go wrong:
1999-06 GM trucks
-None of them have rocker panels or cab corners anymore
-Spring shackles/mounts also disintegrate
-So do the frames, actually
-DoD issues with trucks that have that "feature"
-Rear differential problems
-Even ones with issues sell for absurd money
2007-13 GM Trucks:
-Same as above, although the rust hasn't fully set in on some of them
1994-01 Dodge Ram:
-Everything rots, from bumper to bumper and everything in between
-All of them have paint issues, I've seen sheets of paint come off at highway speeds!
-Electrical problems
-Transmission problems
2002-09 Dodge Ram:
-0.0% still have their original rear wheel arches (it's unbelievable!!!), they are all rotted or creatively repaired
-Most have other rust issues as well
-4.7-equipped trucks have lots of engine problems, avoid those
-Interior design by Rubbermaid
Mod Motor Fords:
-Extended cab trucks are skeletal under the rear windows
-Some of them like to poop out spark plugs
-I see lots of them with bad transmissions for sale
-Timing chain issues
2000's Nissan Titans:
-Early trucks had brake problems, can be corrected with parts swapping
-5.6 makes good power and sounds cool, but is thirsty
1st Gen Tundras:
-Bad frames
-I believe the 4.7 V8 has a timing belt, and I'm sure that service is pricey
2nd Gen Tundras: (My dad has a 2008 SR5 4x4 with the 5.7L V8, so I'm very familiar with these)
-More bad frames
-Some trucks had issues with the cam phase actuators, should have been fixed by now
-Rear end axle bearings go prematurely, need special Toyota tools to repair
-Parts can be $$$$$
-My father's had an issue where the OEM replacement rear brake rotors made contact with the rear axle housing. Toyota's fix was to drop the rear axle and fit each side with an expensive kit at the tune of over $1000 to do the job; my solution was to slightly clearance it with a BFH for $0.00 
The only trucks out of this group that I haven't seen rusted on a regular basis are the Nissan Titans. I've only seen one or two with rust issues, and those were beat to a pulp and had questionable body work that probably caused the rust.
Sooo...the Titan is now a GRM winner?
That's what my list had, plus some Tundra info.
I like the older tundras for their size but as someone mentioned the 4.7 is a tbelt motor, and the air pump will fail, and its not cheap to fix. Sometimes the shfter housing brakes which is a pain in the ass, and didnt these have some weird ball joint that failed spectacularly. Generally around here they command quite a premium in price.
Sure you can run a resistor to delete the air pump and sure you can do the tbelt and be good for a 100k miles, but i like my trucks to be reliable as gravity and super cheap and quick to fix. My truck isnt my toy and i like it to take a little neglect and keep running.
Im not in the rust belt so i cant comment on that.
I like the titans they are a decent truck and i havent seen more issues with them than the big 3, and they are pretty cheap around here.
About the dodge trannies, the newer trannies are pretty stout and super reliable. A good friend is a rebuilder at a very reputable trans shop and he said the 545rfe (IIRC) is pretty durable. He said he rarely sees them broken, normally just wore out after a ton of miles. Yes they are more expensive. Ibelieve my dad paid for a stock rebuild for his what a decently upgraded 4l60 would run.
Mine didnt get serviced for ~280k miles then it started slipping when cold so it got a pan service and its still kicking and towing at 316k.
My picks would be
1st. Tie between 99 up GM and 03 and up Dodge, buy based on condition ans price.
2nd. Titan
3. Tundra
4. Ford
Blaise said:^^ I was going to say, the difference is likely gearing, not the engine. I wish I had 3.73s or 3.23s, with 3.42s I'm often hunting between 2/3 or 3/4. At 75mph it won't downshift to 2nd, so I try to keep it above that :)
Curtis said:After 7 years of running a chain of 13 transmission repair shops, I don't understand it either. The Mopar's 45, 46, 47, and 48 series transmissions were our bread and butter. With one technician and one builder working in a twin-bay shop i frequently saw $20k/wk in sales from just Mopar from that one shop. 4L60Es were usuallly straight up rebuilds with occasional input drum cracks or valve body sticks. 4R70Ws were usually just straight soft parts.
The other thing to note is that parts cost for mopar trannys is much higher. Out the door, customers would pay about 60-70% more for a 47RE build than a 4R100 or 4L60/80E. I could build a VW 01-series transmission or a Jatco in a Rover or Jag for less than a Mopar.
Thanks for the info!!!
I'm also seeing a $1300+$300 core for a 4L60E from autozone? That's incredible. With 2wd, it would be an easy job. Wow. How much is it to rebuild one?
A bench build (take it out, take it to the builder, and re-install yourself) should run about $600-750 all in assuming its just soft parts. It doesn't cover any hard parts damage they may find. Bench builds often don't come with a warranty since they can't control things like what fluid you use, if you hook things up right, properly install the TC, etc. If you take it to a shop and drop off the keys, figure $1500 at a bargain shop up to $2500 for a soaker shop.
My rule of thumb was no more than 20% of the total in parts costs. meaning, if I had to buy $300 worth of parts (kit plus torque converter), I would charge around $1500 for the whole job. That covered my labor, my builder, mortgage, electric bill, yadda yadda. I used to go by percentages of everything and profit/loss calculations until I realized it could be much simpler.
I think I have seen about 3 Titans in hte last couple years locally.
First gen tundra's I loathe. Maybe the V8 and bucket seats made them more tolerable, but I can tell you that the V6 2wd with a bench seat was quite possibly the worst place I've ever had to sit for any period oftime. It guzzled gas like a GM 4WD V8 and had all the power of an auto corolla from the early 90s.
I think early Tundras could be had with the 3.4L. That's.. not great lol. 4.0 v6 Toyotas are pretty great, but i dont know if they put the 4.0 in the 1st gen Tundra at any point.
I really like the 4.7 Tundra engine. It does need a tbelt/water pump and the brackets covering the belt drive are a little eyebrow-raising in how they are designed, but overall it is not bad to do and most people would only be doing it once during ownership.
Titan doesn't have a Tbelt, and doesn't have an engine option that doesnt haul ass. I'm not crazy pro-titan but i would hate to see them overlooked when they are a legitimately good option.
Interesting to hear GRM being so positive about titans, plus there also seem to be some love for the frontiers.
Will have to put them in my radar for future needs.
NoBrakesRacing said:Interesting to hear GRM being so positive about titans, plus there also seem to be some love for the frontiers.
Will have to put them in my radar for future needs.
Or combine them and make a Nissan Fritan
I've noticed the Titans on Craigslist never seem to be rusty. Several 2005s available locally and all look relatively rust free. Any other truck around here will have crusty rear wheel openings by that age, and lacey rear bumpers. I refuse to believe that a truck box can't be designed with fewer water traps for those of us in the salty states, especially given the MSRP that current trucks command.
Someone should be able to make a living selling used Texas trucks in Michigan.
NoBrakesRacing said:Interesting to hear GRM being so positive about titans, plus there also seem to be some love for the frontiers.
Will have to put them in my radar for future needs.
The 2005+ Frontier (I think that's when they changed) is a great truck. They had some hiccups early on with some bad radiators that mix the transmission cooler fluid with antifreeze, but those have likely been repaired by now. As long as you keep the ATF and coolant separate, they are stout as anything. They also offer them with a 6-speed manual so you could avoid that issue altogether.
The thing with these is that the 2018 is basically the same as the 2005. They have only made minor changes over the years. They have the same 4.0 V6 and probably the same 4-cylinder as the early trucks do. They also have a cool off road package, the Pro-4X (formerly the NISMO Off Road package) that comes with Bilsteins, a locker, and more. Like the Titans, I have yet to see a rusty one, aside for one I saw about a year ago that looks like it hit everything but the lottery.
4.8 Towing Power:
More 4.8 Towing Power
Once I finish the engine swap in my Amigo my '11 Silverado 2500HD extended cab long bed, the one that hauled Ferdinand to TX, will be for sale again. Probably @$9k for a GRMer. They are certainly out there.
As far as anecdotal evidence against 4l60 goes, I have a buddy with an 04 avalanche and an 06 yukon, neither of which have towed any more than jet skis and are both on their second trans.
You'll need to log in to post.
