DOH, wait a minute...
Exige
DOH, wait a minute...
Exige
Damn. I'll say E30 again. But only if it is the one in my avatar. Or a 360 Challenge Stradale. I love those. Or a V8 Radical.
Love these answers! There seems to be a trend towards E30s and Miatas, with a few Civics thrown in. Why? Because you have to DRIVE them to be fast. I agree that these are some of the most fun-for-the-dollar cars. Yes, there are faster cars, but the risk of hurting them doesn't out-weigh the fun factor - in my opinion. If it was up to me (and it's not), every track day driver would have to start in a lower HP car with narrow street tires, and with no traction/stability control or ABS. Then, a driver would not be allowed to move to a faster car with all the bells and whistles until they could lap consistently in the slower car.
Ian F wrote:Tom_Spangler wrote: Bah. IE has you covered: http://www.iemotorsport.com/bmw/E30-valvetrain/m20rarmHD.htmlActually, I have those in the car now... still a bit gun shy... My ECU is still stock, although I have a Turner chip to go in it. I don't think the top 3 SE30's running down the back-markers of the 944 and SM classes is all that surprising. There would likely be a large disparity in car prep and driver talent/experience. Spec E30's run M20 6's. Mostly "i" engines if I'm not mistaken.
Keep in mind the vast majority of the "broken rocker" problem, comes from broke, baggy pants, flat billers that bought an E30 for cheap RWD drifting time.............and don't know a thing about checking lash and setting it properly.
It's really not that big a deal, replace them with the IE ones and you will be good for literally TENs of THOUSANDS of miles of 7500 RPM shifts.
Javelin wrote:Tom_Spangler wrote: Let me be the first to say MIATA!Heartily *dis*agree. A Miata is a convertible, which means for certain clubs and tracks you will need either a hardtop and/or a rollbar, both of which significantly change the character (and expense) of the car.
Since I would never track a car, 'vert or tin-top, without a roll bar.......the expense is a wash.
And a roll bar makes my Miata look less girly! 
Javelin wrote:Tom_Spangler wrote: Let me be the first to say MIATA!Heartily *dis*agree. A Miata is a convertible, which means for certain clubs and tracks you will need either a hardtop and/or a rollbar, both of which significantly change the character (and expense) of the car.
I don't see how either one of those significantly change the character. I hardly notice the rollbar is there on my Miata aside from seeing one of the bars in my rearview mirror. A hardtop can be removed in seconds. Either one will only impact the cost $500-800.
240SX is not a bad way to go either. Pretty common, tons of parts available with engine swaps galore. But most importantly, an affordable, relatively light RWD car with a roof and no driver aids (at most, ABS). The S13 fastbacks can hold a lot of stuff; even the coupe versions have a pretty spacious trunk and backseat for holding tools, wheels, etc.
I started doing DEs with a nearly stock 1995 240SX and it did well in terms of teaching me basic RWD dynamics and conservation of momentum. The only real downsides are you have to do more sleuthing to come up with good track setups as most of the community is too busy drifting or trying to look cool in a parking lot.
nissanroadracing.com
EvanB wrote:Javelin wrote:I don't see how either one of those significantly change the character. I hardly notice the rollbar is there on my Miata aside from seeing one of the bars in my rearview mirror. A hardtop can be removed in seconds. Either one will only impact the cost $500-800.Tom_Spangler wrote: Let me be the first to say MIATA!Heartily *dis*agree. A Miata is a convertible, which means for certain clubs and tracks you will need either a hardtop and/or a rollbar, both of which significantly change the character (and expense) of the car.
Sorry man, but my personal experience does not agree with yours. I bought my Miata with a hardtop, that I sold for $1000 cash to the first craigslist ad responder in less than two hours. It took two people to remove or install after the rollbar was installed. Visibility was severely restricted with the top on out of the rear quarters. I had the rollbar added 2/3rds of the way through ownership and is restricted the rear view as well. It also turned the soft top from a 1-hand/10-second deal to a get-out-of-the-car deal. That's what I mean by significantly changing the character, and there just far better tin-tops that don't have to put up with those compromises (E30, E36, 924, 944, 968, 240SX S13/S14, etc, etc, etc). The Miata is a great autocross car. It is not a great track car unless you go whole hog, and then that absolutely ruins it for any kind of street driving. And sorry, but part of my definition of "great track car" is that I can drive said car to and from the track.
Javelin wrote:Tom_Spangler wrote: Let me be the first to say MIATA!Heartily *dis*agree. A Miata is a convertible, which means for certain clubs and tracks you will need either a hardtop and/or a rollbar, both of which significantly change the character (and expense) of the car.
IMHO, if one can't afford the $500 for a Hard Dog roll bar, then one has already violated the "don't track a car you can't afford to wad up and walk away from" rule. I know there are one or two clubs that require a hard top as well as a roll bar, but I don't really understand why -- the hard top isn't structural and it usually gets peeled off immediately if the car rolls over so I don't see it improving safety in any meaningful way. Spec Miatas all have them, but that's more because it improves aero performance on the straight, so it makes the car faster.
The Miata's a great track day car -- assuming you fit. Low on power, low on weight, high on handling, so it's very easy on consumables like brakes and tires. It can be frustrating if you're mixed in a group of inexperienced drivers in high-power cars who don't realize that they need to lift all the way off the throttle to let the Miata by on the straight. A turbo will fix that, but that gets pretty expensive pretty quickly.
The problem with the 240SX is that (at least around here) they're stupidly expensive because they all get bought up by drifters.
^Yep, when ANYONE thinks good track car, they think Jaguar.
codrus wrote: The problem with the 240SX is that (at least around here) they're stupidly expensive because they all get bought up by drifters.
Yep, this was a problem when I bought my first E30 5 years ago.
I always look for a sophisticated track car. Although it can be difficult to pass the Grey Poupon at 130mph.
No problems putting my top down with my roll bar miata here... No visibility issues either...
Palatov D4 :)?
I am more interested in the best car for developing yourself as a driver. So for me the answer was Miata plus I live in Socal where having a convertible should be a plus not a minus. I don' have anything against FWD as I tracked a focus before but I do think the answer depends on the goal
Driving or learning to drive a momentum based car will help you become a much better driver than going straight on the track with something with a lot more power like a vette mustang or Fbody. Nobody leaves track days with trophy's anyway so if you want a track car for personal use its about which car has the most engaging and fun experience more than which is "best"
And my personal experience, I feel that a lot of my FWD knowledge does not translate to my driving RWD in terms of the way driving feels so I do feel that driving a FWD car would not help you develop your skills as well unless you plan to stick with FWD
89-91 HONDA CRX si
Not only the "best", but the "ONLY" car you should be tracking is one that you can emotionally and financially leave in the track dumster on the way out.
It is only with track whores such as this that you will trully explore the limits of what YOU are capable of.
I stopped tracking the MGB GT cause I got attached. The Protege I could have cared less, and while it was not sexy or fast, it allowed me to hang it out where I would not go with the GT. If it died, $500 would have seen me back the next week-end.
Here is a thought, skip trailer ownership and fuel bills, just do a Craigslist search of the area within 20 miles of the track, buy whatever POS that runs and that will take your race rubber wheels, kill the car on the track , swap wheels, dump it on the side of the road and drive home.
Thats a track car!
z31maniac wrote: ^Yep, when ANYONE thinks good track car, they think Jaguar.codrus wrote: The problem with the 240SX is that (at least around here) they're stupidly expensive because they all get bought up by drifters.Yep, this was a problem when I bought my first E30 5 years ago.
The craze has settled down somewhat. They'll always have somewhat of a popularity tax compared to a Saturn or some other contemporary compact car, but the parts availability more than makes up for it. There are great deals out there especially on cars that have already been modded.
I'm somewhat biased because I know the cars well, but I still do think they make a great track car overall.
1982-2002 F-body with a 5spd V8 or a 6spd and V8. easy to maintain/work on replacement parts available at any local auto parts store. It can fit any budget. super reliable when maintained, Parts for modification also easily available, and not too expensive. The Z28/Formula/Trans Ams handle very well when set up for the road course, even with minimal/no mods. Alignment,Brakes,Tires,Fluids and Hammer down with a V8 symphony all around the racetrack.
midniteson wrote: 1982-2002 F-body with a 5spd V8 or a 6spd and V8. easy to maintain/work on replacement parts available at any local auto parts store. It can fit any budget. super reliable when maintained, Parts for modification also easily available, and not too expensive. The Z28/Formula/Trans Ams handle very well when set up for the road course, even with minimal/no mods. Alignment,Brakes,Tires,Fluids and Hammer down with a V8 symphony all around the racetrack.
My friend has one for sale. Full cage and all. It's called the "Hammer". It is bad-@$$.
Sounds like a really expensive way (wheels, tires, brakes) to go fairly slow, at least for the 3rd gens. I think the 4th gen is a decent option.
Here's all the cars I have from old to new:
1962 Austin Healey Sprite hot rod. Lots of motor and suspension.
1990 Mazda Miata. Bolt-on power, full FM suspension and bracing.
1998 BMW M3. NASA TTC + track time car. Take out the roll bar and weld in a cage, add a wing and splitter and go race GTS2.
1999 Radical Prosport. SCCA C sports racer for regional club racing.
2001 Toyota Tacoma. Tows race car.
The M3 is the track car. Why? while it feels like a pig if I drive it a week after I've driven the Radical, that's not a fair comparison. It's fast enough that you can give yourself a thrill if you're ~really~ using the whole thing, once you improve all the systems they're stone-reliable, and they're stout enough that w/ a roll bar/FIA seat/HANS/6-point harness - if you have The Big One you'll probably be OK. Parts are readily available, and lots of people drive 'em.
This season I've been out on Toyo RA1s for a couple days, Hoosier R6s for the NASA TTs, and a day using up a set of completely beat-down Dunlop Direzza Star Specs. It's a different car on each set of wheels. For reference, on Hoosiers I'm doing low 1'26s at Summit, and my best was a 2'16.5" at VIR full. So I'm not the fastest guy - but w/o aero and with a stock 3.23 diff I'm doing OK.
If you do NASA Mid-Atlantic events you'll have loads of people to chase and be chased by, and to BS about the car in the paddock.
And they look good and sound great. Also - if you spend a bazillion bucks developing a car and want out, it's a car for there's always a ready market for autocross/track/TT/NASA/BMWCCA Club Racing/SCCA prepared cars.
I love mine, and through instructing I've been in all manner of cars - and I like the e36 M3 best.
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: No problems putting my top down with my roll bar miata here... No visibility issues either...
Big difference between whatever you have in an NB and a hardtop-fitting Hard Dog in an NA, but whatever. 
Not really... I have a HDHCHT in my NA, as well as a hardtop that I can remove by myself in 10-15 seconds (which I purchased for $200 in the end).
You don't have a Miata anymore so it doesn't really matter.
EvanB wrote: Not really... I have a HDHCHT in my NA, as well as a hardtop that I can remove by myself in 10-15 seconds (which I purchased for $200 in the end). You don't have a Miata anymore so it doesn't really matter.
You're right, of course. Why sell it for $1000 when I can buy a new one for $200? I will give you that it took less than a minute to take on and off pre-rollbar, even with the nice side latches. Fortunately I realized after the first track day that a Miata was slow, had the rigidity of over-cooked linguini, and most painfully was slow. Did I mention it was slow?
I'm not arguing that you can easily sell them for $1000, but deals are out there if you have time to look.
In reply to Vigo:
I'm a bit biased as I own a thirdgen, i run it a pacific raceways and oregon raceway park for track days regularly. I got less than 3500 into my car including tires and brakes, and with the TPI 350 I'm putting 220hp at the wheels, and run low 14s in the 1/4. I've cut the weight down to 3100 I guess that's fairly slow for some but for the money it's hard to beat
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