Big problem: Bolt Removal

I've had to leave bearings in over night in a 20 ton press to just sit there with force being applied before they would pop. Its why I stopped buying $40 bearings for the mx6 and just bought $35 spindle assemblies from the junk yard.

Try soaking in clr.

I just talked to my son. He was in there two weeks ago getting a fender for his 97 Escort. He says they have three of the previous generation on the yard.

penetrating oil first, set it up secure in the shop press... bigger capacity press the better, preload the bolt w/ the press till E36 M3 starts groaning, heat the hub evenly around the bolt through w/ oxy acetylene torch, don't be afraid to pour the heat to 'er either, it'll prolly creak n groan like a mutha but I'd be surprised if that wouldn't do it

Taiden wrote: Oh and finally, I have found that heating a part up (even with a little propane torch) and spraying on penetrating oil has a double effect... it quickly contracts the metal, and it also seems to wick the oil in better. For what it's worth anyway.

Speaking of contracting the metal, you could also try Freeze Off or a similar product. We use that method at work to open containers, and I've used it to remove a fuel filter.....cool and shrink the bolt instead of heating the surrounding area.

Freeze Off is hard to find. I usually use a keyboard duster turned upside down Wiki Says

Inverting, tilting or even shaking the can during use will result in the unevaporated liquid being forced through the nozzle instead of gas. The liquid will boil away almost instantly outside the can, producing extreme cold in the process. This sudden drastic change in temperature can mar or damage surfaces (as well as cause frostbite if it contacts skin).

Also you said that a 20 ton press didn't get it out? Does that mean you took the nut off and then had them attempt to press it out?

The lower control arm to hub bolts on the rear end of my Miata were the same way. Absolutely fused to the cast iron uprights, both sides. I have oxy-acetylene, TIG, MIG, presses, suspension tools, everything one could possibly want or need. I haven't been defeated by a stuck bolt in forever...

But these bizzotches was simply not going to move. Nuh-uh.

I used a Sawz-y'all to cut between the inside of the bushing and the upright to free the upright from the tyranny of the control arm. Then I pressed the bearings and pie plates off - since I was doing all the bushings and bearings anyway...

Then I heated the bejeebus out of the upright, applied Kroil to the interface of bolt+upright. I repeated this cycle a couple times.

Then I supported one side of the upright on a big socket placed on the concrete floor, and walloped the remaining length of bolt from the other side with a huge punch and a 16# sledge, exactly once, with conviction. It moved, and the remainder of it's final trip out was effected with a vise, drift and 4# hammer.

The equal and opposite reaction is the key in many of these cases. Beat all you want, but until you put something heavier than the hammer on the opposite side of where you're beating, ain't nothing going to happen.

motomoron and I had similar Miata suspension experiences but I finally got pissed and bought another upright. When you put it back together, anti seize the snot out of it.

After I got a newsed upright and got the car (the Abomination) back together, I was curious to see just what would be required to get the damn thing apart. I took the stuck upright to work and put it in a 50 ton (yes, 50 ton!) air over hydraulic press and tried to get it apart. The upright broke in half. Pieces flew everywhere.

In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac:

Were you able to get the control arms off?

The front LCA frame bracket bolts on a Spitfire have a similar seizing issue. Often, the easiest way to deal with them is to simply cut the bolt between the LCA and the frame bracket. Then it's a little easier to deal with the remainder of the bolt that is seized into the LCA.

Of course, make sure you can source a new bolt first.

i skipped a bit of this thread, but if you are trying to break a bolt loose you need to leave the dead blow hammer in the tool box and grab a real metal hammer around 30oz or bigger.. then you gotta swing it like you want to hurt the part you are hitting..

use the heat to expand the part that the bolt passes thru and the nut. try to keep the heat out of the bolt as much as you can- you want the metal to expand away from the bolt..

when it's nice and hot, shoot some real penetrating oil (NOT WD40) on it and smack it nice and hard a few times with the hammer to jar things loose and get the oil into the threads and between the part and the body of the bolt.

you can also apply as much pressure as you can to the bolt while smacking it with the hammer- you might need to grow a third arm or get someone to help you with this part..

Its entirely possible im too tired to be thorough but i think i read this entire thread and nobody mentioned just sitting there with an air hammer on it for a solid minute or so.

Although USUALLY, when you have something hefty to backstop it, or the part is bolted to something heavy, you can do better with an actual hammer. But a strong enough air hammer will literally beat it's way through the bolt if it wont break it loose.. so if it doesnt damage the bolt in any way, get a stronger air hammer.

Also i recommend 180 psi at all times, generally.

JoeyM wrote: Speaking of contracting the metal, you could also try Freeze Off or a similar product. We use that method at work to open containers, and I've used it to remove a fuel filter.....cool and shrink the bolt instead of heating the surrounding area.

Freeze Off is good stuff. Rusty nuts aren't much of a problem with one or two applications. I once had to get some brake hoses off of my RX-7 that were stuck fast to the sheet metal brackets. A ton of CRC Screwloose and a 3lb hand sledge did nothing but bend the brackets out of whack, and I had no heat to speak of. One application of Freeze Off, one moderate hammerblow, popped right off. All of my local PepVanceZones carry it, but then again, I live in the Snowbelt. YMMV if you live in a less salty locale.

Taiden wrote: Also you said that a 20 ton press didn't get it out? Does that mean you took the nut off and then had them attempt to press it out?

Correct. The nut/washer came right off. The bolt is fused inside the spindle.

Ian F wrote: In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac: Were you able to get the control arms off? The front LCA frame bracket bolts on a Spitfire have a similar seizing issue. Often, the easiest way to deal with them is to simply cut the bolt between the LCA and the frame bracket. Then it's a little easier to deal with the remainder of the bolt that is seized into the LCA. Of course, make sure you can source a new bolt first.

Well... i got one control arm off, yes. I cut the other one off.

I can get new bolts.

In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac:

did they heat the hub around the bolt while pressing? that would make a huge difference

fasted58 wrote: In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac: did they heat the hub around the bolt while pressing? that would make a huge difference

Probably not. I didn't really tell him to do anything besides throw it on a press.

I'm going to pick them up after work today and take it up to a friend's place. He's got a 20ton press up there and we'll play with that and a bunch of chemicals and see what happens.

Toyman, i think i'm going to end up passing on your offer. Not that i don't appreciate it, but there's a large insurance yard about 30 minutes south of me that has about 20 of these hubs listed for $25 a pop. If i can't beat these out, i'll just have them deal with it on their junkyard cars until they get me two good ones for $50. Saves you time and hassle, and probably isn't any more expensive.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

fasted58 wrote: In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac: did they heat the hub around the bolt while pressing? that would make a huge difference

Probably not. I didn't really tell him to do anything besides throw it on a press. I'm going to pick them up after work today and take it up to a friend's place. He's got a 20ton press up there and we'll play with that and a bunch of chemicals and see what happens.

if you're going to take the time to set that up in the press you might as well hit it w/ oxy acetylene heat if you can. the heat will expand the material around the bolt, then hit it w/ p oil while hot and the oil will creep in further than if it were cold, may take several heat and oil cycles but don't give up. crank as much load on the bolt as possible not just taking up slack, even if it moves thousands of an inch it's a start in breaking that E36 M3 loose, then repeat heat n oil

fasted58 wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

fasted58 wrote: In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac: did they heat the hub around the bolt while pressing? that would make a huge difference

Probably not. I didn't really tell him to do anything besides throw it on a press. I'm going to pick them up after work today and take it up to a friend's place. He's got a 20ton press up there and we'll play with that and a bunch of chemicals and see what happens.

if you're going to take the time to set that up in the press you might as well hit it w/ oxy acetylene heat if you can. the heat will expand the material around the bolt, then hit it w/ p oil while hot and the oil will creep in further than if it were cold, may take several heat and oil cycles but don't give up. crank as much load on the bolt as possible not just taking up slack, even if it moves thousands of an inch it's a start in breaking that E36 M3 loose, then repeat heat n oil

Appreciate it! I'll see if i can scare up an oxy torch for tonite festivities.

Don't attempt to drill that thing, it will just make a giant mess.

Man hammer + oxy. When I say manhammer, I mean one with a long handle that you have to grunt to swing. If that doesn't work, find someone with better than a 20 ton, or as mentioned, do the shop press + oxy heat.

Forget about propane, all it's ever done for me is to burn my hands.

tuna55 wrote: Forget about propane, all it's ever done for me is to burn my hands.

a little hand torch is not capable off doing too much...but given the right circumstances (and its not hard to do), LPG will melt Iron.

I know some people say drill, others don't, but I'd say do it if you have extreme patience and a steady hand, and maybe someone to help with some cutting lubricant. Get some left handed drill bits, and slowly drill (start small) and step up in size, keeping cutting oil in there to help cool and lubricate and prevent heat expansion to the point the bit seizes and snaps off, leaving you in even more trouble. If you do this correctly you should be able to drill out to the threads and what's left can be backed out with an extractor or more drilling. I've done this on turbo housing bolts that welded themselves in place. The key is to go slow, it's usually incredibly frustrating, but at this point, sounds like you'll try anything...

Raze wrote: I know some people say drill, others don't, but I'd say do it if you have extreme patience and a steady hand, and maybe someone to help with some cutting lubricant. Get some left handed drill bits, and slowly drill (start small) and step up in size, keeping cutting oil in there to help cool and lubricate and prevent heat expansion to the point the bit seizes and snaps off, leaving you in even more trouble. If you do this correctly you should be able to drill out to the threads and what's left can be backed out with an extractor or more drilling. I've done this on turbo housing bolts that welded themselves in place. The key is to go slow, it's usually incredibly frustrating, but at this point, sounds like you'll try anything...

This is why i keep getting confused.

There's no threads. This bolt is not threaded in the spindle.

It goes through, then is held onto the spindle by a nut. The spindle is not threaded.

The only way i could see drilling working was if i had a drill bit that happened to be exactly the same diameter as the hole through the spindle, and just drilled through the bolt without muffing up the spindle in the process. I don't think i'm quite THAT good.

It's bolt 28-113. See how only the end is threaded? The entire threaded portion of the bolt is currently visible, none of it remains in the spindle.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Toyman, i think i'm going to end up passing on your offer. Not that i don't appreciate it, but there's a large insurance yard about 30 minutes south of me that has about 20 of these hubs listed for $25 a pop. If i can't beat these out, i'll just have them deal with it on their junkyard cars until they get me two good ones for $50. Saves you time and hassle, and probably isn't any more expensive.

No worries. Good luck.

Toyman01 wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Toyman, i think i'm going to end up passing on your offer. Not that i don't appreciate it, but there's a large insurance yard about 30 minutes south of me that has about 20 of these hubs listed for $25 a pop. If i can't beat these out, i'll just have them deal with it on their junkyard cars until they get me two good ones for $50. Saves you time and hassle, and probably isn't any more expensive.

No worries. Good luck.

The reason i made that decision....

I contacted the guy that built my suspension pieces for this car, and asked him what he did.

He said that he loses the fight about half the time, and he owns a full race shop, does fab work for all kinds of things, preps Grand Am Ferraris and such, and he just ends up getting them from the junkyard.

Well... he has someone else get them for him. And even in California, about half of them at the junkyard at unsuccessful.

So....

In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac:

50% failure rate on rust free units? That sucks. You definitely need that luck now.

Make sure you never seize the new ones. You might want to get it apart again one day.