BIG Stock class change proposal

oldsaw wrote: In reply to fast_eddie_72: I'm thinking the poobahs have a database on Stock w/R-comps vs SP classes and will then assign cars to the SP classes with roughly equivalent times. LPSP is likely to see a big shake-up on how "stock" cars compare to seriously built SP cars.

The comparison is easy to find. Just look at the PAX index. CS, DS, ES, FS, GS and HS are all "slower" than FSP, the slowest Street Prepared class. So do they all dump in FSP? The driver that won GS at Nationals last year was 7 seconds behind the driver that won FSP. I'm not sure he'd be real happy with that solution. Pretty sure I won't be real happy with the fast CS cars coming in and beating me in a class I actually built for.

(edited) I dunno. Like I say - I like what they're trying to do, so I'll sit back and let the dust settle. I don't have the answers, so I'll leave it to the guys who volunteer their time to try to make it all work and thank them for their effort.

yamaha wrote:

DILYSI Dave wrote:

fast_eddie_72 wrote: Anyone understand this Street Prepared Light idea? Are they going to dump them into existing SP classes or set up new limited SP classes? I'd think a ton of cars that were "Stock" will end up in FSP if it's the former. I'd think there are going to be a lot of classes with 2 people in them if it's the latter.

The concept is that they would run in existing SP classes, but built to a Limited Prep level. A stock car playing in SP would obviously be classed in a slower SP class than that same car being built to SP allowances.

This just sounds utterly confusing......Just leave the street prepared classes the way they are. SCCA doesn't really need more classes, it just needs the amount it has now and fixed(which you guys are doing)

It's not new classes. They would run in existing classes.

A little background on this tenet - The goal was to provide a place to play for the "You can remove my Hoosiers from my cold dead hands" contingent. If there is a better way to do this, we're all ears.

God the Scirocco is going to be beat on pretty bad by C Stock cars...

DILYSI Dave wrote: A little background on this tenet - The goal was to provide a place to play for the "You can remove my Hoosiers from my cold dead hands" contingent. If there is a better way to do this, we're all ears.

I like that there was thought given to that and they weren't just told "too bad". Was their any thought given to making this a "transitional" solution? Kind of saying "here's a place to play, for now, but might should have an eye toward a full-on SP build if you want to keep running your Hoosiers".

93EXCivic wrote: God the Scirocco is going to be beat on pretty bad by C Stock cars...

The Scirocco gets more power this year. They're letting them run the 16 valve engine.

In reply to fast_eddie_72:

Now, a limited time transitional class would be a good compromise. They'll need to go SP or back to street tires after that period. Most definitely not a permanent class though

How is threadware on determined?

Manufacturers pull numbers out of their asses.

Duke wrote: Manufacturers pull numbers out of their asses.

Pretty much, 200tw star specs have lasted me events plus 20k+ miles

93EXCivic wrote: How is threadware on determined?

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=48

Duke wrote: Manufacturers pull numbers out of their asses.

Not exactly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTQG

Tires are submitted by the manufacturer to a 3rd party test lab. This 3rd party performs a 7500 mile test in hellhole, texas, then measures the wear and extrapolates based on comparitive wear of a standard tire.

I am looking forward to the change. I am running a 1982 BMW 320 in our local, Cal Club SCCA, Historic 2 H Stock on street tires( 140 and harder ). We have already gone to the plus one on rims. I am running a set of BBS 14X6 with a ET12 offset. The outer tie rods limit your choices.

Last year with two drivers our Falkin 615 K's had to be flipped and well as rotated to last the season. Having camber plates will only help the tires last longer.

The thing to remember is the car has to run the Stock springs and spring hats. I will take what ever I can get from the plates before the hats hit the shock towers.

Getting to add the bigger rear bar will also help the limited spring rate in the rear.

In reply to Ian F:

100% false. It's right in the SCCA rulebook that only three runs will be timed and scored. Even if your local region manages five, only three count, so what's the point?

And in my local region, the SCCA and the PCA run on the exact same lots, in the exact same time frames (obviously on different days). They do three runs in the AM and three fun runs at noon (provided your class runs first, if you run second you can't run in the AM) at $25 per plus the SCCA membership. We do 8-10 competition runs for everyone at $40 (nonmembers) or $35 (members). We average 65-75 cars and are usually totally done by 2. They commonly are just getting to PM run 3 around 3 or 4.

jr02518 wrote: I am looking forward to the change. I am running a 1982 BMW 320 in our local, Cal Club SCCA, Historic 2 H Stock on street tires( 140 and harder ). We have already gone to the plus one on rims. I am running a set of BBS 14X6 with a ET12 offset. The outer tie rods limit your choices.

Isn't there already a rule for cars with stock 13's that they can run 14's? Or is it 12's to 13's?

Javelin wrote: 100% false. It's right in the SCCA rulebook that only three runs will be timed and scored. Even if your local region manages five, only three count, so what's the point?

It does? I don't remember that, though I must admit I haven't looked at an SCCA rulebook since the late 90s. Anyhow, really, only the fastest ONE run counts, so......

In reply to Javelin:

In my SCCA region (and any I've ever been to), the fastest single run out of every run is the one that's scored, whether we get 3 (unheard of) or 12 (not unheard of).

BTW, you guys need to move away from all them people if you're only getting 4-6 runs per AutoX

mazdeuce wrote: What I really want to see, and what I'll be spending a lot of time and energy pushing for, is for rallycross to adopt the same rule set, with different tires, for their stock class. I want to be able to participate in everything in the same car and I want both sides of the sport to be accessible to as many people as possible. Telling me that my camber bolts move me to a class with prepped cars on rally tires (how it is now) is ridiculous once you allow them in the very lowest classes auto crossing.

ugh....I want rallycross rulebook to have NOTHING, NADA, ZERO, ZIPPY to do with the Solo rulebook. Rallycross rulebook is pretty good, and we only have 9 classes and straightforward rules. Not the giant clusterberkeley that solo has become......

It's not as if it's that hard to switch out camber bolts to regular between events, is it?

Javelin wrote: In reply to Ian F: 100% false. It's right in the SCCA rulebook that only three runs will be timed and scored. Even if your local region manages five, only three count, so what's the point? And in my local region, the SCCA and the PCA run on the exact same lots, in the exact same time frames (obviously on different days). They do three runs in the AM and three fun runs at noon (provided your class runs first, if you run second you can't run in the AM) at $25 per plus the SCCA membership. We do 8-10 competition runs for everyone at $40 (nonmembers) or $35 (members). We average 65-75 cars and are usually totally done by 2. They commonly are just getting to PM run 3 around 3 or 4.

What's 100% false? That most regions manage more than 3 runs? I'd contest that.

You gotta remember just how little the National Tour represents in terms of SCCA Solo competition in terms of sheer numbers and attendance.

The rulebook doesn't necessarily apply to all local events. It's also written in that same rulebook that changing the rules to better suit local events is acceptable and encouraged. See: local Street Mod Street Tire class.

We usually get 5 runs locally. Fastest time you run is the one that counts. This is pretty "normal" from what i've seen within the 5-6 different Regions i've raced in. The National Tour format is different, obviously. Much of that is because of the attendance differences.

In reply to Swank Force One:

Hell, FWR normally has a lunch break inbetween 5-6 runs....lol

In reply to Javelin:

Please state the section where this is written. To be honest, I don't care too much about the operations side of running an event. If I get into running events, I will, but right now I invest my limited energies more into class and allowances.

However, I do recall its stated fairly explicitly the rules are meant to be a guide and individual regions are to do whatever necessary to appease their members.

Javelin wrote: In reply to Ian F: 100% false. It's right in the SCCA rulebook that only three runs will be timed and scored. Even if your local region manages five, only three count, so what's the point?

Have you ever been to a local autocross? Yeah, National Tour events only have three runs, but I can't remember ever going to a local event that only ran three. Four is minimum, and pretty typical in our region. And, yeah, they all count.

In reply to fast_eddie_72:

In my experience, Javelin's about right for our local SCCA group. I believe I've had time for more than three runs on at least one occasion, but your best is taken from the first three.

To the best of my (sorry) memory, I've never gotten more than four runs in.

Admittedly, I haven't gotten out to the autocrosses nearly as much as I'd like since moving to Portland, so have only done maybe a dozen events here.

One thing I do prefer very much about the SCCA or pseudo-SCCA (my group in Eugene was based on SCCA rules, but had some of their own classes) is the apples to apples thing. I really want to go run with the PCA for fun and seat time, but where I stack up in a class called "not a Porsche" doesn't really do much for my competitive bug...

Very curious about these developments. If they were happening a bit quicker they'd be ideal for my attempts to autocross my stock WRX (which I am completely unwilling to modify or buy extra tires for) while I'm building cooler stuff. I'll get left behind on the newly allowed mods, but just getting everybody in stock on non-R-comps will help. I know there was some "street tire" stuff going on before, but the fragmentation of the "stock-esque" grid seemed pretty bad.

I think I like the sounds of this stuff. Of course, I'm daydreaming about XSP for my free-engine, free-suspension, full-interior mucking about...

In reply to carguy123:

I would feel that way if my SCCA region was like that, but in NEPA we get between 6 and 8 runs at most events. Seven is most common. courses are usually in the 40 to 50 second range.

Will wrote: If RT was supposed to prove that stock-class competitors want street tires, then why did Stock out-draw RT 66 to 12 at Dixie?

This is a common, but pretty silly argument and I bet you know that. First, you're comparing numbers across 3 classes to numbers across 18 classes. But aside from that, OF COURSE the RT category isn't outdrawing stock at national events, because it's a bastard class. No history of continuing competitors, no national championship awarded, zero expectation of rules stability (or even continued existence), not all regions participating, and so on. IMO it would be an astounding indictment of the stock classes if RT managed to draw even half as many entries at a national event. Would you honestly expect national competitors to flock to the RT classes given all that?

Also, that's just one event. RTR was the largest single class at the only NT I was at last year.

fast_eddie_72 wrote: The comparison is easy to find. Just look at the PAX index. CS, DS, ES, FS, GS and HS are all "slower" than FSP, the slowest Street Prepared class. So do they all dump in FSP? The driver that won GS at Nationals last year was 7 seconds behind the driver that won FSP. I'm not sure he'd be real happy with that solution.

This is exactly what I want to know. All these stock class guys get boned HARD in this Limited Prep scenario.

I'll be honest, I don't like the idea that LP Evos/STIs will probably end up in ESP. Last time pony cars were paired against those two, it didn't go very well for us stick axle guys.