Big Wheels < Small Wheels

^ rarr

I based my choice on availability wherever I may be driving

As in, you only drive on tires you actually expect people to keep in stock? I guess i would be screwed. And by screwed i mean do what normal people do and end up paying way too much for a crap tire that doesnt fit right and listen to some goon try to upsell me a whole set of tires or tell me the size i want wont fit because retail tire sales is almost totally incompatible with getting the right tire at the right price for an oddball enthusiast car.

I have 195/50/15s on the front of my Insight. Im not happy about it. I got one free and bought the other one for $70 knowing i could reuse the pair on my Neon after i buy another pair of proper 195/45s.. from the internet.

can we see some more?

In reply to Vigo:

Yeah, it's my daily driver/ roadtrip car. I don't want to be stranded somewhere for several days waiting on a tire shipment when I can be fairly sure that a nearby tire shop will have something that fits.

The 195/50 should get you better highway mileage on the Insight

I think the 50% increase in weight from the factory wheel/tire combo more than accounts for any height difference in mpg. When i swapped from stock wheels to 15x6.5 i lost almost 2 mpg. Which is about 4%. I still get 48 and im willing to give up those 2mpg to be able to take turns faster. But i still want 195/45 back on it because it looks much better. I have 195/50 in the back but those look right, where they are.

I want to go to 15's for the e21.......its just all the offerings are ghey as they share pattern and backspacing with the miata....

Vigo wrote: ^ rarr

I based my choice on availability wherever I may be driving

As in, you only drive on tires you actually expect people to keep in stock? I guess i would be screwed. And by screwed i mean do what normal people do and end up paying way too much for a crap tire that doesnt fit right and listen to some goon try to upsell me a whole set of tires or tell me the size i want wont fit because retail tire sales is almost totally incompatible with getting the right tire at the right price for an oddball enthusiast car. I have 195/50/15s on the front of my Insight. Im not happy about it. I got one free and bought the other one for $70 knowing i could reuse the pair on my Neon after i buy another pair of proper 195/45s.. from the internet.

can we see some more?

Damn, that makes it look a lot like a 740 Volvo!

wbjones wrote: big wheels require big tires ( even if they're short) that all equals $$$$$$$ and #######'s needless to say, but I hate um ...

I went with 19s on my E38 and the tires were used Sumitomo HTR ZIII performance ones that I got for $50 each with 9/32s tread left on them. Contrast that to the Mustang with brand new $200ea BFG Comp TA Sport 2s.

I personally loved the big wheels on my BMW AND My Mustang:

19s here:

20s here:

In both cases, the cars rode great, handled great, and worked better than the stockers.

yamaha wrote: I want to go to 15's for the e21.......its just all the offerings are ghey as they share pattern and backspacing with the miata....

There are quite a few 4x100 wheels with lower offsets that are still affordable.

In reply to z31maniac:

I think you missed the joke......I know what I want on it, I just have to wait for the hardparker/stance/hellaflush fad to die out so I don't have to worry about being guilty by association.

As the owner of mostly older iron, I'm frustrated to the point of exhaustion and anger at tire companies, automobile and wheel manufaturers, and tire retailers.

I spent a lot of time attempting to find 13" tires for my Corvair, with a whitewall. Struck out. I eventually relented and bought 14" wheels (which I could still get a Corvair hubcap for) and WW tires. Decent 15" tires for older stuff are getting rare, too.

The problem with comparisons now is that most of the smaller diameter tires are not coming in good compounds. They're usually cheap tires. When you can find them. Trying to find 165SR15's for a Volvo Amazon is getting hard even.

Sure, larger brakes need larger wheels to fit over them, but larger wheels also NEED larger brakes. It's either a chicken-or-egg situation, a Catch-22, or a never-ending loop. You pick.

Personally, I think it's a bit of a conspiracy by the tire and wheel companies to foist more expensive tires and wheels upon an ignorant car-buying public. Car companies are in collusion. The minority (people like us here) will never have a large enough voice to matter, and in the end we'll be forced into either buying specialty Coker tires ($$$) for our classics or upsizing and getting socked with a $1000 bill for wheels and $600 every time we need new tires.

As far as handling goes, my SUBJECTIVE opinion based on experience is that lower-profile tires DO handle better, however higher profile tires give more predictable breakaway at the limit, more warning that they arer losing grip, and, of course, better ride- ALL other things (tire quality, tire diameter, contact patch width, etc) being equal. Frankly, I think it's a case that for the majority of the motoring public, high-aspect tires are probably a better choice, safer, more comfortable, and less expensive.

Looks are even more subject, so I won't even go there.

Sure, larger brakes need larger wheels to fit over them, but larger wheels also NEED larger brakes. It's either a chicken-or-egg situation, a Catch-22

Sure, except for the fact that cars keep stopping shorter and shorter in spite of weight gain and wheel upsizing.

Personally, I think it's a bit of a conspiracy by the tire and wheel companies to foist more expensive tires and wheels upon an ignorant car-buying public. Car companies are in collusion

I think that's a crock. The companies are reacting to the people who buy NEW cars, not old ones. Sure, car manufacturers have some role in shaping the expectations of their customers, but the ship of people wanting wheels that look right on their cars has long since sailed. We will never go back to the time when people bought huge-ass cars with 14 and 15 inch wheels and thought that looked right. It never really did, but people back then simply didnt know what they were missing. Wheel size has to be proportional to vehicle size and the size of the wheel opening on any car. Wheels are getting bigger because people have higher expectations for stock vehicles now.

Oddly enough, you might say that over the course of the last few decades, enthusiasts have had much more of a role in shaping the preference for bigger wheels than the OEMs did. Who was unbolting 14s and 15s and replacing with 16s, then 17s, then 18s, then 20s? Enthusiasts. And when people saw that it often looked good, expecations for stock cars were affected.

Wasn't sure if I should post this pic in the little wheel thread or the white letter tire thread.

When there isn't a rule in place, it seems like most competition cars use 17 or 18 inch sizes. Seems likely to me that's where the advantages of shorter sidewalls fade into the disadvantages of rotational inertia and unsprung weight.

Vigo wrote: Which one do you think i prefer? Which one do you prefer?

I was the guy at the Challenge that told you I wanted to berkeley your Dynasty, so it's safe to say I follow your philosophy.

Vigo wrote: Oddly enough, you might say that over the course of the last few decades, enthusiasts have had much more of a role in shaping the preference for bigger wheels than the OEMs did. Who was unbolting 14s and 15s and replacing with 16s, then 17s, then 18s, then 20s? Enthusiasts. And when people saw that it often looked good, expecations for stock cars were affected.

16s front and 19s rear, back in 1980:

One of our club members had one of these back in '82 that was simply a streetified ex-race car, with custom made 19" Pirelli P7s for the rear, Pretty heady stuff back then.

I dunno, custom made tires on my street car sounds pretty friggin heady right now!

I was the guy at the Challenge that told you I wanted to berkeley your Dynasty, so it's safe to say I follow your philosophy.

Thanks dude! It's a different dynasty with all the good stuff from the one i took towed to the challenge with, swapped over. Here it is towing the old car to its final resting place a few weeks ago.

I wanted to throw in a few of things; As for the choice of tires there are lots of 13's available if you don't have specific needs, such as white walls or an absolute size. For a while I was taking the used up takes offs (I buy take offs for the Datsun) and putting them on my street car............so yes I was using Spec Racer Ford tires on my street car. I live in the dry Desert of course. For $50 a pop I could have even bought them for my road car as well as the race car. Most older cars carry a full size spare, on road trips I always put an extra tire (unmounted) in trunk on road trips, stuffed it in a garbage bag and pitched the luggage on top of it. If you got a flat, mount the spare and then have the extra tire mounted in place of the flat if it's needed.

Now as for the sidewalls and tires sizes, on my Showroom Stock Miata running 185's was two tenths faster than 195s but over the course of a 12 laps the 185's were a bit easier to do in, so I ran the 195's during a race but qualified on 185's If you're running low powered cars the extra grip doesn't offset the extra power needed to drag along the tires.

Tire sidewalls are part of the suspension set-up, some cars do not respond well to the damper and alignment settings needed.

Finally a car that does glorious 4 wheel drifts with those donut looking tires may well turn into a pogoing hopping flexi-flyer with super stiff sidewalls. Older cars and their narrow track don't always lend themselves well to the technology

As shown by F1 tall sidewalls can be made too work every bit as well as ultra low profile tires on prototypes, the key is the tires are an integral part of the set-up. Same goes for our road cars.

   Tom

Vigo wrote:

Sure, larger brakes need larger wheels to fit over them, but larger wheels also NEED larger brakes. It's either a chicken-or-egg situation, a Catch-22

Sure, except for the fact that cars keep stopping shorter and shorter in spite of weight gain and wheel upsizing.

There's lots of factors at work there. Brake pad materials, better calipers, vented discs, better brake fluids, etc. We put brakes from a modern Mustang on a Volvo 122 and ran 14" wheels (smaller than the stock 15" wheels) and had braking performance way better than the stock 3 piston Girling calipers on an unvented disc.

Personally, I think it's a bit of a conspiracy by the tire and wheel companies to foist more expensive tires and wheels upon an ignorant car-buying public. Car companies are in collusion

I think that's a crock. The companies are reacting to the people who buy NEW cars, not old ones. Sure, car manufacturers have some role in shaping the expectations of their customers, but the ship of people wanting wheels that look right on their cars has long since sailed. We will never go back to the time when people bought huge-ass cars with 14 and 15 inch wheels and thought that looked right. It never really did, but people back then simply didnt know what they were missing. Wheel size has to be proportional to vehicle size and the size of the wheel opening on any car. Wheels are getting bigger because people have higher expectations for stock vehicles now. Oddly enough, you might say that over the course of the last few decades, enthusiasts have had much more of a role in shaping the preference for bigger wheels than the OEMs did. Who was unbolting 14s and 15s and replacing with 16s, then 17s, then 18s, then 20s? Enthusiasts. And when people saw that it often looked good, expecations for stock cars were affected.

I see your point, but what I was saying was that tire and wheel companies want to sell larger tires and wheels- obviously, there's more profit to be had per unit by selling a more expensive good. They've parlayed that onto the OEM side, and I'm sure have some influence over what carmakers are shodding their wares with. Yes, enthusiasts were swapping larger tires and wheels onto cars before the OEMS were, but like everything else that's "trendy" companies are hopping onboard en masse, basically killing off smaller tires. This also helps obsolete older cars, thus further encouraging consumption (of new vehicles). I agree, 14" wheels on a 19 foot long, 2 ton land yacht were kinda silly. 16s or 17s, IMO, are about the sweet spot. For compact cars, though, a 14" wheel/tire package can be perfectly acceptable.

Vigo wrote:

Sure, larger brakes need larger wheels to fit over them, but larger wheels also NEED larger brakes. It's either a chicken-or-egg situation, a Catch-22 Sure, except for the fact that cars keep stopping shorter and shorter in spite of weight gain and wheel upsizing.

There's lots of factors at work there. Brake pad materials, better calipers, vented discs, better brake fluids, etc. We put brakes from a modern Mustang on a Volvo 122 and ran 14" wheels (smaller than the stock 15" wheels) and had braking performance way better than the stock 3 piston Girling calipers on an unvented disc.

I think that's a crock. The companies are reacting to the people who buy NEW cars, not old ones. Sure, car manufacturers have some role in shaping the expectations of their customers, but the ship of people wanting wheels that look right on their cars has long since sailed. We will never go back to the time when people bought huge-ass cars with 14 and 15 inch wheels and thought that looked right. It never really did, but people back then simply didnt know what they were missing. Wheel size has to be proportional to vehicle size and the size of the wheel opening on any car. Wheels are getting bigger because people have higher expectations for stock vehicles now. Oddly enough, you might say that over the course of the last few decades, enthusiasts have had much more of a role in shaping the preference for bigger wheels than the OEMs did. Who was unbolting 14s and 15s and replacing with 16s, then 17s, then 18s, then 20s? Enthusiasts. And when people saw that it often looked good, expecations for stock cars were affected.

I see your point, but what I was saying was that tire and wheel companies want to sell larger tires and wheels- obviously, there's more profit to be had per unit by selling a more expensive good. They've parlayed that onto the OEM side, and I'm sure have some influence over what carmakers are shodding their wares with. Yes, enthusiasts were swapping larger tires and wheels onto cars before the OEMS were, but like everything else that's "trendy" companies are hopping onboard en masse, basically killing off smaller tires. This also helps obsolete older cars, thus further encouraging consumption (of new vehicles).

I agree, 14" wheels on a 19 foot long, 2 ton land yacht were kinda silly. 16s or 17s, IMO, are about the sweet spot. For compact cars, though, a 14" wheel/tire package can be perfectly acceptable.

They've parlayed that onto the OEM side, and I'm sure have some influence over what carmakers are shodding their wares with.

Well, they certainly have influence over whether they win the contracts or not. Automaker says "im building XYZ with wheel options XYZ give me your bid on X tires in XYZ size", and if tire manufacturer says "we're not going to give you a good price or even supply tires in ABC size because our preference runs towards counteracting the phenomenon of ever-growing wheel/tire packages", they will never get another contract from that manufacturer again. I think the car manufacturers are happy to feed the market that exists for 'big wheel cars' and the tire manufacturers are beholden to the car manufacturers. I dont think there is much collusion.

Yes, enthusiasts were swapping larger tires and wheels onto cars before the OEMS were, but like everything else that's "trendy" companies are hopping onboard en masse, basically killing off smaller tires. This also helps obsolete older cars, thus further encouraging consumption (of new vehicles).

Well, i disagree that it is a trend. The OEM 22" wheel options on full size trucks and SUVs look fantastic. I havent seen anything bigger than that that was OEM and/or looked good, so that's where i see it stopping in the short term. But other than 22+ i think the current rang of common wheel sizes on OEM vehicles is going to stay the same for quite a while.

In reply to Vigo:

Well, I disagree that 22" wheels on anything looks fantastic. I think they look godawful. But that's aesthetic, subjective, and completely besides the point. The larger diameter tires and wheels cost more to make, give more profit, and end up socking it to the consumer when the time comes to replace them. When the 235/75R15 was the de-facto standard for tires on light trucks, you used to be able to get 4 good quality A/T LT tires "on the rim and out the door" for under $400. How much will a set of 4 of those "fantastic" 22" tires cost?

Hey, it doesn't matter! "Charge it!"

volvoclearinghouse wrote: In reply to Vigo: Well, I disagree that 22" wheels on anything looks fantastic. I think they look godawful.

I know it is besides the point, but..

HEAR HEAR!

Who wants low profile tires on a truck? Yuck!

Give me this

over this

Any day

All the ones that are saying that big wheels are a fad, I give you:

18" wheels:

19" wheels:

20" wheels:

and 21" wheels:

People have known for a long time that bigger wheels are superior, if only to allow for bigger brakes (although the last example has tiny brakes) or a better ride.

In reply to fanfoy:

By showing a bunch of big-wheel cars from 90 years ago aren't you providing evidence that wheels sizes go in and out of fashion like women's clothes?

Yes and no

I guess that should reassure the ones complaining that you can't find 13" tires anymore. If you can still buy tires for those cars, I cannot imagine it is THAT hard to find a 13" tire. Heck, coker tire has 29 choices just in radial.

Oh, 13" tires are available, it's just that as there is less and less demand for them, you have to try harder and harder to find them and pay more and more for them. CONSPIRACY!!!

By showing a bunch of big-wheel cars from 90 years ago aren't you providing evidence that wheels sizes go in and out of fashion like women's clothes?

Yall are showing your age (or your mental age) with these comments about trend/fad etc. The things we are talking about have been prevalent for periods of time measured in DECADES.