BMW, you are dead to me. DEAD! I say...

docwyte wrote: On another completely different tangent, notice that no one is making a wagon anymore? Or at least isn't importing them to the USA?

Maybe BMW will remedy that situation.

Has anybody here actually driven a DSG/SMG/robo-manual in heavy traffic? Parallel parked? In a parking garage? In a very hilly area (San Fran, Seattle, etc)?

I don't care how much faster they are at the track, they suck in all of those conditions (and yes, I've done them all). I'll take a foot-operated clutch or a regular ole torque convertor for anything in the real world, thanks.

Now, on an actual track, my tune changes completely...

dyintorace wrote:

Maybe BMW will remedy that situation.

Hopefully they will make a few 335s with sticks, a used one could make a worthy successor to the V70R when I finally wear it out. Honestly though, the new turbo four in the 328 is pretty great too, and a bit more efficient.

NOHOME wrote: With the 6 speed gearbox being on the "negative" side of the list for what I like and don't like on the car I just bought, I understand why the trend is going this way. No arguing that more gears ARE better. Just not if the driver has to be the one endlessly rowing on the lever and deciding if fourth or fifth is where the lever should be for a given moment. As much as I am a devotee of manual gearboxes, give me 5 gears and some torque.

you mean mid range???

and I'm just getting use to 6 speeds... (reverse is now spring loaded left and up, as opposed to right and down....)

the 5 speed I had previously was original design as a 4 speed and the stuffed a 5th in for economy.

I've got more than enough mid range to skip either 4th, or 5th if I feel lazy

In reply to Javelin:

I liked the DSG in those conditions, it drove....like an automatic for whatever that is worth

For you guys that think this will add complication, you really need to drive a few new BMW's. This is the least of their worries. I recently went BMW car shopping with my Dad, and he ended up buying a new 328I to replace his 5 series. To say this car is complicated is a VAST understatement. It even has a starting procedure, no key, a procedure...and a stop procedure. And then there's the door handles that have multiple functions, and the bumper that opens the trunk, and on and on. It's overwhelmingly complicated.

To be honest, the transmission is really, really good. I would have no qualms about having that as an everyday and not having the stick. What's more concerning is the total lack of steering feel. It's simply not good, even by Camry standards. Hopefully the M cars are still, well, BMW. But we drove several models (3, 5, and even a 1) and all were similar, with poor feel.

I know I keep harping on this in several BMW threads, but it still leaves me speechless. In every other catagory it is a seriously nice car. Decent power and almost 40mpg so far, and in general, a very nice car all around. But when you have your older 5 series feel so much better, it makes you wonder what happened.

But the DSG, it was easy to use and not at all as bad as you might think. I could live with it.

In reply to Javelin:

Yep! I daily drove my M3 for three years. I honestly would not have even considered the M3 over a 996 had it not been for the SMG - I was THAT sold on it.

I loved everything about it. Totally easy to slip/modulate, made parellel parking exceedingly easy, hill assist was there for hilly areas but even then I rarely used it. I loved it both for real world driving and for track driving.

Like I said, had it not been for the SMG, I would not have even considered an E46 M3.

And of my roughly 120 cars, eight of them have had automatics (plus one SMG!).

GameboyRMH wrote: I think Lamborghini and Ferrari have already phased out traditional manuals. You can only get robo-manuals from them now.

That only makes sense. They're supposed to be the "pinnacle" of whatever, like Formula 1. Formula 1 has been using automatics for a very long time now.

The only top-tier motorsport where gate-shifted manuals are still in use is NASCAR.

Die hard fans of occasionally wiggling their left foot miss out on driving some nice cars, like my last BMW, the very fun E38 luxury sedan. Or my built-automatic-equipped V8 RX7 autocross car.

you guys often sound like Enzo Ferrari being the last guy to give up on the tried and true drum brakes instead of those newfangled disc thingies...

racerdave600 wrote: For you guys that think this will add complication, you really need to drive a few new BMW's. This is the least of their worries. I recently went BMW car shopping with my Dad, and he ended up buying a new 328I to replace his 5 series. To say this car is complicated is a VAST understatement. It even has a starting procedure, no key, a procedure...and a stop procedure. And then there's the door handles that have multiple functions, and the bumper that opens the trunk, and on and on. It's overwhelmingly complicated.

having just bought a 2009 e92, I gotta agree. The flappy paddle gearbox isn't the complicated thing.... everything else is. see if you can figure out how to adjust the dash light brightness without referring to the owner's manual. Or even after consulting the manual, can you remember the steps without having the manual open in front of you.

Honestly, I don't give a crap how well DSG, SMG, or whatever type of automatic you want to call it works. Having to replace the one in the Volvo with all of 120K miles on it for the tune of $3800 has soured me greatly. That makes the $60/qt for MINI MTF fluid seem cheap. Definitely soured me compared to my TDI with 292K miles on the original clutch (with no signs of needing replacement anytime soon).

I will admit two things make me not need an automatic. One, while I drive over 100 miles a day, my stop and go driving is minimal. Second, my daily driver is a TDI with a lot of low end torque and an exceptionally light clutch action. Stop and go traffic is almost fun in that car when I do have to do it. Whenever I had to use our '07 Cooper 'vert for DD duty, I missed the clutch in the TDI after awhile - and that car had a lighter clutch feel than our '03 MCS does.

Ian F wrote: Honestly, I don't give a crap how well DSG, SMG, or whatever type of automatic you want to call it works. Having to replace the one in the Volvo with all of 120K miles on it for the tune of $3800 has soured me greatly.

As someone who's first mechanical DIY job was rebuilding a Ford C6 automatic at 16 years old, automatic repairs don't bother me. They aren't magic boxes. I also would not replace a used and broken one with a new, one, but with a good used one (I've done that in various cars many times). And my BMW's automatic was still going strong when I sold it at 185k on the original fluid. I know af many that are still going strong in E38s well after 250k miles. If I used one bad experience to sour me on a car, then I should hate manual transmissions after having to rebuild the glass like gearboxes in a couple Fiats.

Chris_V wrote: Die hard fans of occasionally wiggling their left foot miss out on driving some nice cars, like my last BMW, the very fun E38 luxury sedan. Or my built-automatic-equipped V8 RX7 autocross car. you guys often sound like Enzo Ferrari being the last guy to give up on the tried and true drum brakes instead of those newfangled disc thingies...

I honestly like both depending on the car, but I am not willing to consider the transmission a 100k miles replacement item like on the E38 BMWs, when a normal manual will go 400k and still function. The more complicated automatics and DSG types are even worse as far as maintenance costs from what i have heard..

Chris_V wrote: Die hard fans of occasionally wiggling their left foot miss out on driving some nice cars, like my last BMW, the very fun E38 luxury sedan. Or my built-automatic-equipped V8 RX7 autocross car. you guys often sound like Enzo Ferrari being the last guy to give up on the tried and true drum brakes instead of those newfangled disc thingies...

I let my ignition timing adjust automatically, too. No advance lever on the steering column for me!

Knurled wrote:

Chris_V wrote: Die hard fans of occasionally wiggling their left foot miss out on driving some nice cars, like my last BMW, the very fun E38 luxury sedan. Or my built-automatic-equipped V8 RX7 autocross car. you guys often sound like Enzo Ferrari being the last guy to give up on the tried and true drum brakes instead of those newfangled disc thingies...

I let my ignition timing adjust automatically, too. No advance lever on the steering column for me!

Good one.

Having driven the new 991 with PDK, I loved it. That said, were it my money, I'm opting for a stick.

We're down to one car with a slush box in the family, and I'm working on getting her to learn to drive stick.

You know, some people still like wood boats or listen to vinyl records.......it doesn't make them resistant to change, it's just a preference. I for one like using my left foot and rowing the gears. It's one of life's great pleasures, especially when you get it just right. I don't care about shaving off a couple of tenths of my 0-60 time or winning a drag race.

Chris_V wrote: you guys often sound like Enzo Ferrari being the last guy to give up on the tried and true drum brakes instead of those newfangled disc thingies...

it's not a matter of "holding on to old technology." Driving a car with drum brakes doesn't make it more enjoyable.

Driving a car with 3 pedals makes driving more enjoyable, no matter what the car is.

Also having low maintenance costs and long component life are high on my list when it comes to transmission choice.

Then again, I have a BMW that was converted by me from electric windows to hand-crank. Oh wait, that's because the electric ones were constantly breaking, while my arm remains perfectly capable of rolling up or down a window.....

10 years from now, will you say that we are all "resistant to using back-up cameras because we're set in our ways using old-school mirrors," or could it just be that we don't constantly need electrical crap to do things that can be done for less money, less weight, and less maintenance by something manually?

In reply to Chris_V:

I've had a bad experience with every automatic I've ever owned.

I'm with this guy. Don't care how good they are, or how fast they shift compared to a human. It diminishes the act of driving in a car that is built for driving pleasure. Make all you want for high end luxury barges that won't see the track, but it's improper to force these into an enthusiast car. If a manual keeps someone from buying an M3 or M5, then they weren't meant to have one.

I guess BMW just isn't an enthusiast brand anymore.

Steve Chryssos wrote: I guess BMW just isn't an enthusiast brand anymore.

Not to me they aren't.

Keep in mind that the 3 Series now weighs about 5000 pounds. (The 5 is like 7000 pounds and I think the 7 Series is close to 9,000)

OK, so I am exaggerating, but the point is that the heavier these cars get, the more power they need to maintain performance, so they need stronger automatic transmissions. The death of the manual has as much to do with weight as it does technology.

And I don't know about where you live, but modern BMWs are driven by trophy wives and asshats around here, neither of whom can figure out a stick anyway.

pinchvalve wrote: And I don't know about where you live, but modern BMWs are driven by trophy wives and asshats around here, neither of whom can figure out a stick anyway.

Yep. Here in central NJ, I see about as many BMW's, M-B's and Audi's as Toyotas and Hondas. I'll usualyl see 2 or 3 M3's a day. There's an E39 M5 parked in front of a modest house around the corner from me. V10 M5's and M6's are somewhat common. It's no big deal to see a Porsche GT3 or Turbo driving around. About the only car I haven't seen yet around here is a Veyron.

irish44j wrote: it's not a matter of "holding on to old technology." Driving a car with drum brakes doesn't make it more enjoyable. Driving a car with 3 pedals makes driving more enjoyable, no matter what the car is.

I use this same argument whenever some jackwagon asks me why I don't have a manual spark advance lever.