WonkoTheSane wrote:Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Cut the beam tight to the lift post and then weld both sides to it with a gusset on each side and a connecting plate across the back with a horizontal flange. Now the lift is also a support.Now that's an interesting idea...
This, but with bolts instead of welds.
JG Pasterjak wrote:WonkoTheSane wrote:This, but with bolts instead of welds.Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Cut the beam tight to the lift post and then weld both sides to it with a gusset on each side and a connecting plate across the back with a horizontal flange. Now the lift is also a support.Now that's an interesting idea...
Winner. Just be careful how much you drill out of that flange...
Temporarily support the beam, notch beam for the lift.
Weld bolt flanges on the lift, install lift.
Drill matching holes in beam, bolt to beam, remove temp support.
Engineering - any weight supported by the post would not detract from lifting capacity, it might even increase it (on that side)
JG Pasterjak wrote:WonkoTheSane wrote:This, but with bolts instead of welds.Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Cut the beam tight to the lift post and then weld both sides to it with a gusset on each side and a connecting plate across the back with a horizontal flange. Now the lift is also a support.Now that's an interesting idea...
I don't like it.
The lift will not be there forever. Someday, you will move, change your mind, buy a new lift, etc. When the lift is removed, the house is compromised structurally. If you ever sell (even if you leave the lift), a home inspector will freak out, and you will risk the sale of the house because of goofy engineering that the inspector can't understand.
YOU CAN'T NOTCH THE BEAM. The bottom flange is the tension member, and will be compromised significantly if you cut it. Consider that the legal disclaimer.
But what is gonna happen here is you are going to cut the beam... more on that later...
The specs on the lift are probably incorrect for your application. They are erring on the side of caution by telling you not to be closer than 2' from the edge of the slab. What they don't know, is that the edge of your slab is an outside wall. They are assuming the slab has a particular thickness (they usually spec 6", but yours is probably 4"), and that the edge is the same thickness. Yours is not. There is a footing under it. So there is no structural compromise at all to putting the post directly against the wall. In fact, the closer you are, the better. You will be transferring load to the footing, instead of the middle of the slab.
Position the post as close to the wall as you feel comfortable for working space. You are going to be tight, so make a judgement call.
Now, back to that beam...
You are still going to notch the beam, but understand what I said earlier. There is no structural integrity once the bottom flange is cut. There are 2 responses to this.
1- Most steel beams in residential applications are over-sized. Have an engineer do actual calculations on the real load and necessary beam size. I'm betting you have only floor load on that beam. So (for example) you may find you have an 8"x12" beam, but only need a 6"x12. You could then safely cut 2" off the flange. You could also stitch weld a flitch plate to the beam to reinforce it (again, hire an engineer).
2- Add a post. This is the simplest solution. Cut the flange and add a post as if the beam is now 2 separate beams. That way, when the lift is removed in the future, the house will not be compromised structurally. Note, you should cut the concrete and add a footing to support this post.
A couple hundred dollars worth of engineering will be worth it.
One other option would be to raise the beam, or sister the ceiling joists with ones that can clear span, but that's a lot more work.
WonkoTheSane wrote: Ohsc- That's a great idea, but I think I'll be able to go for cutting down the lift.. I was taking a closer look at it. And I'm still a good 6" above the chain pulley.
Am I understanding you have dead space at the top of the lift post?
Cut it. Done.
Make sure however that it is actual dead space. If the cables attach to the bottom of the arms, it might need that much height for the arm brackets/ trolley to occupy.
Woody wrote: That's a MaxJax garage right there.
Yup. There's 34 compromises with this setup no matter how you go about it unless you weld the post to the I beam and make the lift a structural part of the house haha. Max Jax and be done with it.
Actually, there's really only one or two, and that's worth the 2k less I paid than a maxjax :). It's not that I have anything against them, mind you, this one just allowed me to get a lift this year instead of waiting, and for the price of it, I can unload it later for scrap and still break even. It's old-skool American steel.
Either way, I was just out there playing and positioning, and it looks like if I the top of the lift, I'll only lose ~2 stops of travel (~6" total), and gives me about 5.5' under the car to work, which should be fine. I can still easily store the rx7 up above, and park the 8 or miata under it for daily use.
Thanks everyone for all of your insight, and for trying to spend a lot of my money :)
SVreX wrote: [a lot of really sensible stuff]
If you notch the post, then decide to move out later on down the road and pull the lift out, could you not weld a patch into the notch and call it a day? Heck, if you cut it clean enough you could use your original cut for the patch.
DISCLAIMER: No one should ever listen to anything I say when it comes to construction. Or anything else, really.
In reply to JG Pasterjak:
Luv ya' man!
No, welding the flange back won't solve the structural compromise. If a home inspector or a building inspector ever sees it, expect to be doing some expensive engineering and repairs (ie: replace the beam)
That's sort of like trying to weld the chunk back in the block after it throws a rod through the side.
SVreX wrote: In reply to JG Pasterjak: Luv ya' man! No, welding the flange back won't solve the structural compromise. If a home inspector or a building inspector ever sees it, expect to be doing some expensive engineering and repairs (ie: replace the beam) That's sort of like trying to weld the chunk back in the block after it throws a rod through the side.
Dammit! Now I learned two things I can't do today.
Before you go cutting the top off the post, make sure the trolley doesn't actually got higher than the chain pulley. Granted, the lack of ceiling height means you won't get full use of the lift anyway.
We'd need to know more about the construction of the garage slab to know more about slamming the left post against the wall. If it's a floating slab (not attached to the foundation) then who knows what might be under the edge of the slab by the wall. Of the recommendations offered, I like the load-spreading plate idea best. You'll need them under both posts so it lifts evenly.
To be honest, everything you're looking at is why I didn't get a two post lift and got a scissor lift. Unless you plan on using that lift every day, you may quickly learn to hate those posts.
And to reiterate what SVex hinted, whatever you do, don't touch that beam. Nothing good will come from that. Most structural engineers I know tend to be conservative types. I don't know of any who would even look at this project. I'm not sure I'd trust one that would. Risk their license and livelihood for a few hundred $$$? NFW.
In reply to Ian F:
You have a point on the floating slab. That would be a problem.
But I've never seen a floating slab on a garage. Nearly 40 years in construction. I've seen floating basement slabs, but not garages.
Even if it is floating, however, there is still a masonry stem wall that transfers to the footing. It's a 4" thick wood framed wall (I can tell by the window jamb). The stem wall would be a minimum of 8" thick, more likely 12". That would mean the post would still be sitting on the stem wall and transferring to the footing, even if the slab is floating.
It is far more likely that the slab is sitting on the stem wall (poured or CMU), or monolithic.
But you are right, if it is floating, it would be bad to put the post near the edge of the slab, especially if it missed the stem wall.
This reminds me, is the slab in question even thick/strong enough in the first place? I know a lot of residential garages aren't.
Kenny_McCormic wrote: Could you cut a big hole in the floor by the wall, dig down and key in a nice big footing to give enough strength to put the post closer to the wall?* *I'm not a civil engineer, nor do I play one on TV.
Kenny - You don't want to do this, because the locks that disengage the arms so they swing freely won't work properly in that config.. I'm going to figure out if the garage floor is thick enough once I get everything into position. I don't want to drill more holes than needed, and if it's not thick enough, I'll have to pour some inserts at that point.
SVreX - You're right about the wall, it's a poured unit ~12" wide, with a 4" framed wall on top of it. Do I need to figure out if it's floating or anchored, or does it really even matter? The house was built in 1980, although I believe the garage was poured after that (maybe 1985-1990ish?). Thanks for the in-depth overview of why cutting out the beam is a bad idea... I figured it wasn't a good one, but I didn't realize it was THAT bad :) I have a buddy who is a good structure guy, I've given him a few aneurisms I think.
Ian - I've attached a pic of the floor plate, with the bolt holes highlighted, and I also attached a pic of the top with the cut line and the top of the pulley. Nothing needs to happen above the pulley, although the top of the carriage will go about 12" or so above it. I've used 2 posts, 4 posts and scissor jacks quite a bit, and I loves me some two post. I know that occasionally the posts will be in the way, but that seems way better than the compromises you have to make with the other styles.
Thanks again everyone.
Hmm... the track marks in the metal above where you want to cut are a bit worrisome. Is the lift currently functional? Can you operate it to see what that trolley is doing?
Lifts in a residential garage are usually a matter of which compromises you're willing to live with. We weren't willing to live with those posts fixed in place when we weren't going to get full use/height out of the lift anyway due to the low ceiling. In hindsight it was a good choice since if I'd gone that route I would have had to leave the lift in the ex-g/f's garage when we broke up since my single bay garage can't accommodate a 2-post at in any way.
Oh, if you want more reasons why cutting the beam is a bad idea, even if you do manage to support the new 'ends', there would considerable reduction in lateral strength and stability. Most critical if you live in an region with any level of seismic activity.
Curious to see how this pans out, one of the advantages of renting is that I don't get to worry about cool toys like lifts :P
Put the lift in the right bay at an angle. To approach the lift, you'll have to enter the left bay. When a car is lifted, you'll probably still be able to park underneath it in both bays. No cutting or engineering necessary.
WonkoTheSane wrote: SVreX - You're right about the wall, it's a poured unit ~12" wide, with a 4" framed wall on top of it. Do I need to figure out if it's floating or anchored, or does it really even matter? The house was built in 1980, although I believe the garage was poured after that (maybe 1985-1990ish?). Thanks for the in-depth overview of why cutting out the beam is a bad idea... I figured it wasn't a good one, but I didn't realize it was THAT bad :) I have a buddy who is a good structure guy, I've given him a few aneurisms I think.
Everyone should give their friends aneurisms for sport and pleasure!- they're fun, and inexpensive!! 
Personally, I don't think the floating slab is an issue, because you will still be sitting on the foundation stem wall.
Quick question...
I'm not sure where you live, or what your climate is. Have you considered putting the lift outside?
I have an enormous garage with a high ceiling, but I am considering moving my lift outside. It would let me keep the garage stuff more organized (or disorganized, depending on my mood) without the enormous volume of the car/lift consuming a large percentage of the garage.
If you cut that post, I'm pretty sure you will not be able to park a car under the one in the air. I do it occasionally, and have very little space to spare. When you are measuring for height, don't forget to include the wheels, suspension droop, etc.
You will also get a really bad kink in your back every time you use the lift, unless you work sitting on a stool.
My vote is notch the beam, and add a post, if you can't put the lift outside.
I agree that cutting the lift will make it a bit un workable, and worth only scrap after the cut. If you can stand fully erect under a car, it's no better than a mid-rise. I have a mid-rise. I can get the car high enough to get the hub centers at rib cage height. Obviously I can't walk under the car. Another 2' would not make it any better. If nothing else, this thread reinforces that I do not want a garage with two separate garage doors with a beam in the middle. I thought it'd be a pain, this illustrates it.
All that being said, I'd cut the lift short and put a mechanical stop to prevent the trolly from riding out of the post. Then you'll have a mid-rise+ lift with out the mechanisms of a scissor lift to deal with.
Good score on a nearly free lift man. You'll make it work.
Ian - the track marks just show how high it could go. I'll just be limiting the total travel, so I don't think that'll matter too much. It's not all hooked up, but I've manually lifted the column up to the max height I expect to lift it to chopped down, and I don't see any reason for concern.
SVreX - I live in ct, so it would be worthless for half of the year, so it's not going outside, plus I would have to pour a whole new slab for it, my driveway is reclaimed asphalt, which wouldn't make a good base. Your thoughts on the slab and how close I can move the other post over really help, though, I'm going to slide that back some and see what I can get.
Dr. Boost - I don't know that I'd be able to get a car >6' high anyway in my garage (10.5' ceilings), so it'll be tight regardless... I don't know how much the extra 4 or 5 inches would help anyway. I probably should have been more stringent in looking for a 12' ceiling when I looked at houses, but this one has enough room to add on another bay later, when I don't do something dumb like drop 24k on solar... And thanks, I got the lift for 400, so I'm not too concerned about hacking it apart if that'll be easier than modding the beam.
Perhaps the most important part -- you're going to have to move that lovely ceiling fan when you raise the garage door tracks....
Since you're in CT, your garage stem wall footings are probably at least 3' down. So you may in fact have a floating slab.. Potential bummer.
Here is a different thought..
What is being supported by that steel beam in the ceiling? Is there a floor above or just a ceiling and roof?
I realize this is getting ridiculous, but IF there is no floor above (and you don't have an attic jammed with storage that you cannot live without) and IF it is a stick framed roof, you may be able to remove the garage ceiling, re-purpose that long steel beam and move it so it supports the roof ridge instead, thereby creating a cathedral ceiling with more room for lift clearance.
You said you saved a couple thousand on that old lift.. You owe it to yourself to spend at least three times that much in making it work. That way you can still brag about getting a great deal, right?
I didn't say "lower the floor". That'd be crazy.
MichaelYount wrote: Perhaps the most important part -- you're going to have to move that lovely ceiling fan when you raise the garage door tracks....
I know, it makes me sad :(
SnowMongoose - I was thinking of that exact thing, but I figured the "ye olde english" version would be a bit more obscure :)
OHSCrifle - Someone else said lower the floor.. Either way, I do use the room above, that's currently holding my big-ass'd compressor that I also scored with this lift, as well as a bunch of other stuff. I only get about an hour a night (if I'm lucky) to play in the garage. Anything involving moving/relocating a floor would take me all summer to do.. I do like the way you think on cost analysis, though!
To all: It seemed like the fastest/easiest/most reverseable if I screw up way to do it is to simply cut the lift post, so, Tada! Ignore the welding blanket that I had shoved in there to keep sparks & dust from getting inside the post. I still have to put the "cap" on, but that sits inside and is just a couple of bolt-holes.
If, for whatever reason, I want to go back, I'm going to keep ahold of this bit, and I have a welder and a grinder, I can stick it back together again.
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