BRZ LS2

Swank Force One wrote: The Miata is a bit different... i don't want it any more, but i had a friggin' BLAST riding in the Targa car with you, Keith. Very bizarre feeling that and hearing the noises in that car. I liked it. But we're talking about a car that can be purchased for under $4k in the Miata. Not a $25k-$30k car with a warranty you're about to ruin in a huge way. Then spend all the money. (Not that a turbo kit wouldn't void the warranty. ) Then you REALLY have to consider "Well hell, i probably should have just bought a Z06 for LESS money." I'm all for huge power in small cars. I guess i just tend to avoid swaps when at all possible, and considering the FA20 already in the BRZ/FRS has made over 600whp without being opened, a swap isn't anything that interests me. Obviously it interests enough people, and that's great, because options are great. I think it's cool that it exists, it just goes back to "Doesn't stir my loins."

You can buy some Miatas for $4k, but the guys who are coming to us for swaps are doing it with ones that cost $15k or more. Now that we have the NC worked out, it would not surprise me to find a new car up on the lift within a year.

The GM crate engines have a warranty, a used Z06 does not. But there's also a big difference between a light, nimble car and a Z06. Don't get me wrong, I love the Chevy and it's a hell of a car. But it's not going to feel the same. Add in the uniqueness factor, and it's definitely a car that will attract a lot of people.

600 hp out of a 2.0 is a dyno special. That's for bragging rights - especially the "without being opened" part, which means it's a hand grenade. It's not going to drive like a car with displacement.

Swank Force One wrote:

z31maniac wrote:

Swank Force One wrote:

Bobzilla wrote: You do realize that an L98 is a first generation SBC. It hasn't been in production for 22 years. The LSx are not tractor torque engines in the least bit, and in the truck world they caught a lot of flak because they have to be rev'd more than the engines tehy replaced. Look, I don't give a E36 M3 about the Frisbee, I just don't get the LSx hate.

I know what the L98 is. That's the point. It's not LSX hate. I just don't understand spending all that money on something that would be massively outperformed by an off the shelf bolt on kit. That's all.

Massively outperformed? I don't know which LS they used, but you can the LS3 that comes with 480 off the shelf. Plus, I would have serious doubts of the stock BRZ motor lasting at that power level anywhere near as long as GM Built LS3........especially if it's getting beat on at the track. EDIT: In the title, not sure why they didn't use a better variant, but the essentials of the swap are the same.

Fair enough. I was just comparing to the car in the article. I'm sure with enough money, you could have a 1500-2000whp LSx variant in the thing.

It's just one of those things that always bugs me:

"Look how much power XXX made" etc.

True, but if it won't last, then what's the point? That's just me though. I like reliable and fast. Not fast and always breaking down.

That, and I'd love to overlay a 400whp 2.0 curve with a 400whp LS curve. Area. Under. The. Curve.

z31maniac wrote:

Swank Force One wrote:

z31maniac wrote:

Swank Force One wrote:

Bobzilla wrote: You do realize that an L98 is a first generation SBC. It hasn't been in production for 22 years. The LSx are not tractor torque engines in the least bit, and in the truck world they caught a lot of flak because they have to be rev'd more than the engines tehy replaced. Look, I don't give a E36 M3 about the Frisbee, I just don't get the LSx hate.

I know what the L98 is. That's the point. It's not LSX hate. I just don't understand spending all that money on something that would be massively outperformed by an off the shelf bolt on kit. That's all.

Massively outperformed? I don't know which LS they used, but you can the LS3 that comes with 480 off the shelf. Plus, I would have serious doubts of the stock BRZ motor lasting at that power level anywhere near as long as GM Built LS3........especially if it's getting beat on at the track. EDIT: In the title, not sure why they didn't use a better variant, but the essentials of the swap are the same.

Fair enough. I was just comparing to the car in the article. I'm sure with enough money, you could have a 1500-2000whp LSx variant in the thing.

It's just one of those things that always bugs me: "Look how much power XXX made" etc. True, but if it won't last, then what's the point? That's just me though. I like reliable and fast. Not fast and always breaking down.

Hasn't broken yet... They've been dogging the E36 M3 out of the car.

Nobody knows it won't last. If it's holding 600whp, it's probably a pretty safe ASSumption that it's not real stressed at 400whp.

Make sense, though... we like turbo Miatas, but we don't like turbo FA20 powered cars, despite the FA20 being several tiers higher than the BP in terms of superiority scale.

Actually I have no interest in a turbo Miata since I car my track in a very hot/humid climate.

I suspect for what it would take to make 300 dead, nuts reliable whp out of a BP would put me close to cobbling together an LS1 swap.

At first I was like WOW!!! COOL!!!

Then I thought: Okay, so I COULD buy a BR-Z for $25,000. Find a donor motor and trans for (I dunno, what, $5k? I have no idea.) Basic kit for $3k, or "upgraded" kit for $9k.

...aaaaaand without factoring my time at my hourly rate, have a $40,000 Subaru with a used Chevy motor.

Um. Or I could just go out and buy a nice, clean stock, low mile C5 Z06 for $20k...or a supercharged Z06 for $25k.

To each his own. It's cool. I'm sure it's fun to drive. It's also 20 berkeleying grand for a three hundred pound reduction in weight. Yeeeeee.

But there's also a big difference between a light, nimble car and a Z06. Don't get me wrong, I love the Chevy and it's a hell of a car. But it's not going to feel the same.

Wait. Are we talking miatae or BRZ. Am I misinformed or is the BRZ just a tick under 2800 lbs.?

In reply to poopshovel: not to mention I doubt you could fit the needed rolling stock under the Frisbee without another 2-4k for a widebody kit.

They're swallowing 255s pretty easily for what that's worth.

I WILL admit that the Miatas seem to do ok with LSx power with 225/45-15s.

In reply to Swank Force One:

It was in reference to the comparable tire selection on afformentioned z06(which can swallow 335's)

Swank Force One wrote: Make sense, though... we like turbo Miatas, but we don't like turbo FA20 powered cars, despite the FA20 being several tiers higher than the BP in terms of superiority scale.

Nothing wrong with a 300 rwhp turbo 2.0. Remember how I said I drive a turbo Miata to work? But a 600 rwhp turbo 2.0 is a different beast, you're giving up a lot to get that headline number. Meanwhile, you can buy a 480 hp/475 torque V8 with a two year warranty and sweetheart driveabilty By the time you get to V8 power levels, the V8 is the smart way to go.

If you can put in 255s, tire size shouldn't be an issue. Just make sure they're good tires - our NC runs a 255 Dunlop ZII, and it's pretty happy.

As for weight, I didn't realize the BRZ was quite that heavy. Bummer. That will crank up the cost of consumables somewhat. I wonder what the weight of the V8 version with a rear end that's strong enough to deal with the torque would be. Still, the BRZ is going to be smaller than the Z06.

You guys also have to consider the uniqueness factor. Not everyone wants the easy answer. Heck, the number of "what car" threads on the forum that state "BUT NOT A MIATA!" at the beginning kinda illustrate this nicely. I've seen the responses that a V8 in a small car will get, people will walk around a Z06 to get to one.

Interesting reaction to the project, especially from a bunch of motor-heads.

Having spent years on this board and followed no end of asinine projects and fantasies, and seeing noting but enabling for such, along comes this rather interesting project and people are acting like babies are being stabbed in public.

Its no different than a V8 Miata; they don't make sense either but people build them for whatever reason compels them. Some people just want to express themselves with these hybrid projects. More power to them. Who cares what they cost? Are you being asked to fund them?

As to the "I would not drive it if offered" crowd, yeah right! And I don't plan on accepting the power-ball lottery money when I win either, cause it might change me!

Depreciation is one of the givens in nature. Used FRS and BRZ variants are already on the market, and in five years 10k should see one in your driveway. Toss in another 20k for the swap bits, and you have a project. Not going to be much in the 30k market that would be as interesting to build and drive.

NOHOME wrote: As to the "I would not drive it if offered" crowd, yeah right! And I don't plan on accepting the power-ball lottery money when I win either, cause it might change me!

I'm being honest. And I would accept the powerball......and start swapping rotary and 2jz's into corvettes. This is my point, berkeley what everyone else is doing. You are confusing the batE36 M3 crazy swap ideas here for the common "Well lets put an lsx in it" All I ask for is people to be creative and not follow the status quo.

That swap was about as unexpected as Margie needing another concrete patio.

In reply to aussiesmg:

If you're talking about 600whp BRZ's that haven't been opened, you're probably talking about my friend Don's car from Accelerated Performance. Sure, it made that power... on 3 bent rods. It was not a happy camper when he tore it apart after SEMA.

It's make a LOT more than that now, and he still dailies it around on E85.

I'll be more excited for the exocet spec A LS3 swap :)

Its no different than a V8 Miata

When I can buy a running BRZ/FRS for $1,000, then you'll absolutely have a valid argument.

For the 3rd or 4th time, I think it's cool. I get it. I understand, as Keith said, people will (obviously) walk around a Z06 to get to an LS(x) swapped whatever. I am totally one of those people.

But the day that I spend $20,000 more for a car simply so people will tell me how cool I am is the day I hope one of you guys will be kind enough to stick a bullet in my head, as I've obviously lost my goddamned mind. As there is amost ZERO performance info in that article, you guys can speculate how much more fun it would be to drive than a $20k Z06 with $20k worth of modification all day long. It would've been interesting to see them take a stock Z06 and their swapped BRZ to the track. I just don't see how "BUT IT'S SMALLER" directly correlates to "Notably faster," especially since it's only shedding a couple hundred pounds.

AGAIN: To each his own. I get it. It's cool. $100k exotics are cool. But you won't see me buying one when I can get the same performance for a tiny fraction of the $$$, no matter how much car-nerd attention it'll garner.

Depreciation is one of the givens in nature. Used FRS and BRZ variants are already on the market, and in five years 10k should see one in your driveway. Toss in another 20k for the swap bits, and you have a project. Not going to be much in the 30k market that would be as interesting to build and drive.

Except, maybe a $15k Z06 with $15k worth of supercharger, suspension, and tires? Or a LSX powered....whatever the berkeley else you can buy for less than $10k? Festiva? 510? Accord Wagon? The list goes on and on.

beans wrote: If you're talking about 600whp BRZ's that haven't been opened, you're probably talking about my friend Don's car from Accelerated Performance. Sure, it made that power... on 3 bent rods. It was not a happy camper when he tore it apart after SEMA. It's make a LOT more than that now, and he still dailies it around on E85.

Nah the FBM car not the AP car.

Well, I can speak to the stock FRS as I have been driving one for just over a year now. As many here are aware, I an not going to be their poster boy for Fanboy Promoter.

What lets me forgive all with this car is the way it goes about the business of turning. It has nothing to do with the lateral grip, because the tires themselves are on the wrong side of just about crap.The Z06 does not have that going for it. The vette will outcorner any FRS all day, it just wont feel like it is having a good time doing so.

yeah, the FRS feel is engineered and contrived, but it does work. Sure cant see how more power would make it not better.

I think the LS2 is pretty interesting in the BRZ and I also think the Crawford BRZ is pretty interesting (480+hp and 500+lbft with a custom built and turboed motor). All FR-S/BRZ are pretty interesting to me...I'm biased being an owner who loves the car, even with its faults. Stock power level is fine for the car, just needs better engine mapping to make the most of the motor (3 to nearly 5k rpm 'dip' region takes some getting use to...wish it were more linear in power delivery like a non-VTEC honda B series motor.) You learn to drive around it though...if you need to really accelerate, get it to 5k by selecting the right gear and go... I do like the stock tires as well, plenty of grip (car can road hold .93+g on the stock tires so they aren't exactly horrible...especially with how they work so well with the chassis when mounted on wider and lighter wheels).

And the chassis and suspension is what the car is about...excellent balance and control unlike any other current car that is reasonably priced and affordable. There is no need to change anything on the suspension...it's perfect. Seriously, just replace parts as they wear out. After installation of $35 solid aluminum steering rack bushings though...it has a perfect precision of control and immediacy through the wheel that makes the stock car seem off and wrong, especially mid-correction in high chassis rotation situations (looking for maximum cornering without drifting) where there was a slightly numb feel with the soft rubber factory bushings.

A quality control lead/supervisor at work has a Corvette Z06 he drives to work a few times a week...that's supercharged; I believe just shy of 600hp and 550 lbft to the wheels riding on wide R compound tires because of needed grip levels. He also knows his way around a race track and serves as the mechanic/test driver of a buddy he knows who vintage races a formula car. Took him for ride and he really liked how well it handled. His exact words "That car has a sweet setup chassis/suspension...just could use more power." He also rides an older Yamaha R1...

I'm more than content with the stock power level...but it's interesting to see what others are doing. Have yet to see a FI modded car that didn't have heat issues on track though...which is why I like NA and near stock power levels (0 issues on track...run it as hard as you want). LS motor may be a good compromise...but how much does it affect the handling and precision of an FR-S/BRZ is the big question? Wouldn't mind driving it to find out either...

Based on another car with excellent balance and control unlike any other current car that is reasonably priced and affordable , I suspect the handling and precision should be just fine.

I love LSx swapped cars but I am not sure this one is as good a candidate as some. The Toybaru motor is 2 cylinders long, behind the front wheel centerline, and the heads and block are level with the crank. The LSX has an entire engine worth of cylinders above and forward of the Toybaru engines location, and all of that is forward of the front wheel centerline.

Sure, it's an expensive and not quite grassroots project now - but it's nice that someone is paving the way for something one can do years from now when it's easy to pick up a worn out Frisbee with a blown motor for cheap.

Mmmmm lsx swapped accord wagon :drool: