Buddy bought an FRS last night...

alfadriver wrote: If you want a dig, a real dig- here's my honest opinion. This looks like the perfect drivers car. And that is IT. To me, the looks are very boring, Toyota isn't going to attract anyone who wants one for the "image", Subie might get some test drivers, but they'll want Turbo. So anyone who buys a car for image will be not so happy. IMHO.

Yeah I think it looks boring but it still looks a lot more exciting then 90% of the new crap that is being pumped out. I really hope you are wrong about image buyers though. I mean the Miata sells despite it not looking the most excited thing in the world.

Current Subarus have excellent reliability in general. It isn't an issue.

alfadriver wrote:

Javelin wrote:

alfadriver wrote: Wow, first car sold to someone who knows a poster here, and the car is so inadequate that it needs another $2-10k worth of mods? so it missed the apparent mark, then.

Seriously? That's your dig?!? I don't think there's been a *single* car purchased on this forum that *hasn't* had tires swapped, including my Mazda5, Brad's 944, aussie's Elantra, etc, etc. I mean, seriously? It's bad that we want to add grip!!?!?

I'm not talking about tires. Although some have posted bigger tires... But there are a few posts about stance, and spring/shock packages, and blowers, and, and and.... For a car that should be spot on out of the box, a lot of people are asking for big changes. If you want a dig, a real dig- here's my honest opinion. This looks like the perfect drivers car. And that is IT. To me, the looks are very boring, Toyota isn't going to attract anyone who wants one for the "image", Subie might get some test drivers, but they'll want Turbo. So anyone who buys a car for image will be not so happy. IMHO. I'll give it a year before sales of the pair are under 5k. There just are not enough "drivers" out there.

Every car SHOULD be spot on out of the box. None of them are. It's not really the car's fault, it's just because everyone has different tastes.

93EXCivic wrote:

alfadriver wrote: If you want a dig, a real dig- here's my honest opinion. This looks like the perfect drivers car. And that is IT. To me, the looks are very boring, Toyota isn't going to attract anyone who wants one for the "image", Subie might get some test drivers, but they'll want Turbo. So anyone who buys a car for image will be not so happy. IMHO.

Yeah I think it looks boring but it still looks a lot more exciting then 90% of the new crap that is being pumped out. I really hope you are wrong about image buyers though. I mean the Miata sells despite it not looking the most excited thing in the world.

Like it or not, the Miata does have an image. Some the one we argue about, but there's also a nicely porportioned convertible. Even with that, it's not as if it's a huge seller- the much "more" looking sky twins sold twice as many.

I personally think there's more image with the Miata than this appears to be able to get. There was more 'image' in the MRS, as well. And while it's more exciting than 90% of what is offered, it also doesn't deliver 98% of what people think they need- space and practicality. It will deliver the 2% better than 99.9% of the cars out there, for sure. it's just that the 2% is so far down on 95% of the public....

alfadriver wrote: I personally think there's more image with the Miata than this appears to be able to get. There was more 'image' in the MRS, as well. And while it's more exciting than 90% of what is offered, it also doesn't deliver 98% of what people think they need- space and practicality. It will deliver the 2% better than 99.9% of the cars out there, for sure. it's just that the 2% is so far down on 95% of the public....

It delivers more then enough space for me.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Every car SHOULD be spot on out of the box. None of them are. It's not really the car's fault, it's just because everyone has different tastes.

You are right. But for a car like this, what you are showing me are excuses to not buy the car. To get what I want, I can spend $28k for a new one, plus another $X to get what I want- and if I'm going to do that, then why not go with Y?

This car needed to be a home run. It's a solid triple, but who's coming to bat to bunt it home?

In other words, most of the "excitement" I see on the interwebs is just words. I suspect that most people who want one are hoping someone else buys it and then they can get it cheap used. The actual new car buyers are few and far between.

Look at the fury when the dealers were going to mark it up.

93EXCivic wrote:

alfadriver wrote: I personally think there's more image with the Miata than this appears to be able to get. There was more 'image' in the MRS, as well. And while it's more exciting than 90% of what is offered, it also doesn't deliver 98% of what people think they need- space and practicality. It will deliver the 2% better than 99.9% of the cars out there, for sure. it's just that the 2% is so far down on 95% of the public....

It delivers more then enough space for me.

And?

You seem to be in denial that sports cars are a very fringe part of the market. That, and I suspect that you are not planning on buying a new car anytime soon, so your point is essentially moot.

alfadriver wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Every car SHOULD be spot on out of the box. None of them are. It's not really the car's fault, it's just because everyone has different tastes.

You are right. But for a car like this, what you are showing me are excuses to not buy the car. To get what I want, I can spend $28k for a new one, plus another $X to get what I want- and if I'm going to do that, then why not go with Y?

And what, exactly is Y? I think what Celica is saying (and if so, then I agree), is that even if you buy Y, it still won't be spot on out of the box. IMO, you don't get into the range where cars satisfy a motorsports junkies needs out of the box until the $50k range.

Jaynen wrote: 2. Volkswagen GTI

For cereal? That tells me the article was crap right there. No way to turn off the traction and stability controls and an idiotic throttle programming make that the least driver's friendly enthusiast car ever. It sucked at the Lightning Lap, Top Gear hates it, and even GTI fans think it's a ninnie compared to past versions.

ProDarwin wrote:

alfadriver wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Every car SHOULD be spot on out of the box. None of them are. It's not really the car's fault, it's just because everyone has different tastes.

You are right. But for a car like this, what you are showing me are excuses to not buy the car. To get what I want, I can spend $28k for a new one, plus another $X to get what I want- and if I'm going to do that, then why not go with Y?

And what, exactly is Y? I think what Celica is saying (and if so, then I agree), is that even if you buy Y, it still won't be spot on out of the box. IMO, you don't get into the range where cars satisfy a motorsports junkies needs out of the box until the $50k range.

Bingo.

Let's say i would spend $10k on a BRZ to make it perfect. (I wouldn't, wouldn't take me that much.) Then i've spent $38k. There's nothing i could find for $38k that would be perfect out of the box. In that case, i'd rather have my $28k + $10k BRZ/FRS than i would the $38k car.

alfadriver wrote:

93EXCivic wrote:

alfadriver wrote: I personally think there's more image with the Miata than this appears to be able to get. There was more 'image' in the MRS, as well. And while it's more exciting than 90% of what is offered, it also doesn't deliver 98% of what people think they need- space and practicality. It will deliver the 2% better than 99.9% of the cars out there, for sure. it's just that the 2% is so far down on 95% of the public....

It delivers more then enough space for me.

And? You seem to be in denial that sports cars are a very fringe part of the market. That, and I suspect that you are not planning on buying a new car anytime soon, so your point is essentially moot.

I mean I know they are a fringe part of the market. I just don't understand why. I mean the thing has a hatch which means I know it will hold at least as much stuff as my Civic coupe. And I hauled the entire rear suspension, axles, rear brakes and differential from a Spitfire plus a race seat, camping stuff and a set of Civic springs in that and had room left for someone to sit up front. Unless you have kids you don't need anything bigger then a Fiat 500 or BRZ.

And yeah I probably am not in the market for a new car because well I have other things I would like to spend my money on right now. But I hope it succeeds so I can buy it or an Abarth new in a few years.

We have years and years to argue about this. Pretty much nobody here is going to buy one until they depreciate to less than $10K.

Javelin wrote:

Jaynen wrote: 2. Volkswagen GTI

For cereal? That tells me the article was crap right there. No way to turn off the traction and stability controls and an idiotic throttle programming make that the *least* driver's friendly enthusiast car ever. It sucked at the Lightning Lap, Top Gear hates it, and even GTI fans think it's a ninnie compared to past versions.

I read the article it put the GTi 5th.

Yeah, I said the forum screwed it up. When I pasted it in the numbers were right bu the forum did some stupid list thing so my edited one shows the GTI in last but the one you can see shows it in first.

dunno why. The FRS/BRZ twins were on top, followed by Miata, followed by Mustang, then hyundai, then GTI

For all the arguement about having to add more money to it, with the Miata being lauded as the answer to everything what Miata do you get away with leaving stock? The price of the BRZ-FRS is comparable to the new MX-5 but still anyone tracking an MX-5 lets say in STR for example is dumping money into it. I don't see it taking more money to prep a BRZ for ST level auto X or track days than it does any other car

I hope they sell like hotcakes and I can pick one up in a couple years after some depreciation :)

btw adding stuff to cars is part of my fun. It's not about whether you HAVE to do anything because we all know that if we simply swapped tires we would likely get a LOT farther on just tires and driver ability than most the mods we do

ProDarwin wrote:

alfadriver wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Every car SHOULD be spot on out of the box. None of them are. It's not really the car's fault, it's just because everyone has different tastes.

You are right. But for a car like this, what you are showing me are excuses to not buy the car. To get what I want, I can spend $28k for a new one, plus another $X to get what I want- and if I'm going to do that, then why not go with Y?

And what, exactly is Y? I think what Celica is saying (and if so, then I agree), is that even if you buy Y, it still won't be spot on out of the box. IMO, you don't get into the range where cars satisfy a motorsports junkies needs out of the box until the $50k range.

Doesn't matter. Could be an old GTA, could be a 90's Vette, could be anything. Instead of narrowing the choices to one perfect candidate, all you are adding is another one that I need to work on, which means that it's an excuse not to buy one.

Jaynen wrote: I hope they sell like hotcakes and I can pick one up in a couple years after some depreciation :)

Which is exactly why they are not going to sell...

The masses that are clamoring for it are the same ones who talked Mazda into making a turbo Miata, which sold so well that they had extras.

Again, who here, a real live poster, is going to the Subaru dealer or a Toyota dealer and getting one?

93EXCivic wrote: I mean I know they are a fringe part of the market. I just don't understand why. I mean the thing has a hatch which means I know it will hold at least as much stuff as my Civic coupe. And I hauled the entire rear suspension, axles, rear brakes and differential from a Spitfire plus a race seat, camping stuff and a set of Civic springs in that and had room left for someone to sit up front. Unless you have kids you don't need anything bigger then a Fiat 500 or BRZ. And yeah I probably am not in the market for a new car because well I have other things I would like to spend my money on right now. But I hope it succeeds so I can buy it or an Abarth new in a few years.

Or own a house, want to go on a lengthy roadtrip, etc.

I filled up our entire Speed 3 coming back from Nashville last year. No room for even one more case of beer.

I'll echo alfa that you think what YOUR ok with, everyone should be ok with. And it's just not the case.

alfadriver wrote: Again, who here, a real live poster, is going to the Subaru dealer or a Toyota dealer and getting one?

So far three, and that seems like a lot to me.

You keep claiming it "missed its mark," but everyone that has actually driven one has been 100% impressed with it. I'm not clear why you are putting more weight in the words of someone that hasn't driven one than in the words of someone that has. I know it's not a Ford but you can still admit that it seems to be a really great car.

dculberson wrote:

alfadriver wrote: Again, who here, a real live poster, is going to the Subaru dealer or a Toyota dealer and getting one?

So far three, and that seems like a lot to me. You keep claiming it "missed its mark," but everyone that has actually driven one has been 100% impressed with it. I'm not clear why you are putting more weight in the words of someone that *hasn't* driven one than in the words of someone that has. I know it's not a Ford but you can still admit that it seems to be a really great car.

I did say it was a great car, or at least appears to be one. Read my posts.

I just find is amusing that there's so much talk about pretty major modifications. And I'm not claiming, I'm asking did it miss the mark.

My real point is that there's so much talk and demand from Toyota and Subaru, they put up the time and money to deliver the goods, and which demander is actually going to get one?

Vracer111 wrote: You know how the answer to questions on this forum is usually "miata!"... well not anymore with this car.

x2

You know what they say about first impressions...

Not since the original Miata have I had such a great first few seconds of driving a car. Everything else is 'just" a car, or as I call the Protege, a "Toaster". Not so the FRS.

Of course I am going to say that since I need to rationalize dropping 30k out of the savings account, but I did try the competition and they felt like Toasters with more options. I really wanted to like the Mustang since it is a Made in the USA car and a convertible to boot. But lets admit that it is a heavy car to get around a corner, and doesn't do so gracefully on stock suspension.

z31maniac wrote:

93EXCivic wrote: I mean I know they are a fringe part of the market. I just don't understand why. I mean the thing has a hatch which means I know it will hold at least as much stuff as my Civic coupe. And I hauled the entire rear suspension, axles, rear brakes and differential from a Spitfire plus a race seat, camping stuff and a set of Civic springs in that and had room left for someone to sit up front. Unless you have kids you don't need anything bigger then a Fiat 500 or BRZ. And yeah I probably am not in the market for a new car because well I have other things I would like to spend my money on right now. But I hope it succeeds so I can buy it or an Abarth new in a few years.

Or own a house, want to go on a lengthy roadtrip, etc. I filled up our entire Speed 3 coming back from Nashville last year. No room for even one more case of beer. I'll echo alfa that you think what YOUR ok with, everyone should be ok with. And it's just not the case.

The BRZ will fit a set of wheels and tires. What do you carry on a roadtrip that takes up that much?

dculberson wrote:

alfadriver wrote: Again, who here, a real live poster, is going to the Subaru dealer or a Toyota dealer and getting one?

So far three, and that seems like a lot to me. You keep claiming it "missed its mark," but everyone that has actually driven one has been 100% impressed with it. I'm not clear why you are putting more weight in the words of someone that *hasn't* driven one than in the words of someone that has. I know it's not a Ford but you can still admit that it seems to be a really great car.

me

post back after you have driven one.

By the way, there is no feeding frenzy as there was with the Miata. Four of us at the local dealer have pre-purchased. Hope they will be here soon. Next shipment won't be until August unless it is a dealer exchange. No line up for the next lot so far ccording to my salesperson. No stupid dealer markup games either. I was surprised.

While I also can see the future with a Spec FRS racing class, it is too early to tell if the car will attain critical mass. How the tuners and second hand market adopt the patform will dictate a lot.

The other thing that the Miata has goin for it is bulletproof reputation. I admit to some trepidation in moving away from the Mazda brand in general since I know nothing of Subaru longevity. I drove my 1990 Miata for 300,000 km.. This is someting that will have to be earned. If for example the early cars have a rash of bad engines or transmissions, I expect it will kill the car within three years.

93EXCivic wrote:

z31maniac wrote:

93EXCivic wrote: I mean I know they are a fringe part of the market. I just don't understand why. I mean the thing has a hatch which means I know it will hold at least as much stuff as my Civic coupe. And I hauled the entire rear suspension, axles, rear brakes and differential from a Spitfire plus a race seat, camping stuff and a set of Civic springs in that and had room left for someone to sit up front. Unless you have kids you don't need anything bigger then a Fiat 500 or BRZ. And yeah I probably am not in the market for a new car because well I have other things I would like to spend my money on right now. But I hope it succeeds so I can buy it or an Abarth new in a few years.

Or own a house, want to go on a lengthy roadtrip, etc. I filled up our entire Speed 3 coming back from Nashville last year. No room for even one more case of beer. I'll echo alfa that you think what YOUR ok with, everyone should be ok with. And it's just not the case.

The BRZ will fit a set of wheels and tires. What do you carry on a roadtrip that takes up that much?

Obviously you're not married.

In reply to NOHOME:

BTW, when are you scheduled to pick it up? I see that it's scheduled to be delivered in August, is yours part of that shipment?

I really do hope that there are no delays from whichever company you are getting it from. You are one of the real people that Subaru and Toyota should be proud of.

As for racing, i bet you'll see them going around Long Beach next spring. Natural fit for the celebrity race stuff they do.

alfadriver wrote:

Jaynen wrote: I hope they sell like hotcakes and I can pick one up in a couple years after some depreciation :)

Which is exactly why they are not going to sell... The masses that are clamoring for it are the same ones who talked Mazda into making a turbo Miata, which sold so well that they had extras. Again, who here, a real live poster, is going to the Subaru dealer or a Toyota dealer and getting one?

Well the glaring difference here was that most people weren't even aware a factory turbo Miata existed.