In reply to Streetwiseguy :
That's not a "60 degree" engine.
Hell it doesn't even have a 60 degree bank angle, SAAB designed it with a 54 degree bank to make it fit the existing 9000.
In reply to Streetwiseguy :
That's not a "60 degree" engine.
Hell it doesn't even have a 60 degree bank angle, SAAB designed it with a 54 degree bank to make it fit the existing 9000.
yupididit said:In reply to Stefan :
Mmmmm L28 with itb's. Glorious!
Why didn't I think of this?
Glorious indeed!
Stefan said:yupididit said:In reply to Stefan :
Mmmmm L28 with itb's. Glorious!
I was thinking more L20B to keep the weight balance. One can still put Webers or ITBs along with a bunch of other parts to make them sing quite well. Tough, tough design (post war Mercedes acquisition).
Weight seems a bit of a non-factor relative to swapping motors anyway, and, IMO, only a SBC and v12 motors sound as good as an L- series 6 at 7k plus rpm....
Knurled. said:In reply to frenchyd :
The what now??
I assume it was in a Cimarron? That would be the only chassis I could think of that wouldn't have used the 4100/4.5/4.9.
Yes it was a GM 60 degree V6 from about 1984. similar to the Iron Chevy 60 degree V6. Found in S10’s I’m not sure which Cadillac it was in but I suspect you are correct the Cimarron would make sense.
It was supposed to be a simple engine change. But he showed up with the 90 degree Buick V6. He went back and came with the Cadillac but the bottom end had been ruined in the accident. So I couldn’t make it work. At the end of the day he showed up with a nasty looking Chevy that I slapped together and dumped in the car for him.
Streetwiseguy said:Knurled. said:In reply to frenchyd :
The what now??
I assume it was in a Cimarron? That would be the only chassis I could think of that wouldn't have used the 4100/4.5/4.9.
I think he must be talking about the Opel engine they used on "The Caddy that zigs", whatever that bucket of crap was. Same v6 they used in Saab 9-5's.
Catera. The Cimarron was the POS Cavalier in an ill fitting suit
On the subject of the L28; there was actually an British racer who put a L24 into a 1200 and race it. The car was rolled and never competed again. While the L28 daily so indeed sound glorious it's acatully heavier than a small block V8, not to mention that the L6 positions the weight much farther forward.
As I did my research I was very surprised at how little the weight difference there was between modern twin cam 4 cylinder and a push rod V8, in many cases it's as little as 40lbs and at most 100lbs. Moving components around could negate a large portion of that.
Here is my plan; I'm going to do a race in early May with the 1200 and then I'm going to get the F500 prepped for road racing (currently used for autocross), it needs a new cell and the seating position needs to be adjusted (I have to pour a seat). I'll use the F500 in the fall. Summer is our off season because no one wants to race when it's 110F. After the fall event I'll decide if I want the 1200 to be a hooligan track day car.
Y'know, if you're thinking L20B, Nissan used the L-series four as the basis for the KA engines...
Slippery slopes are fun!
Why has no one said LS yet? You could get a bone stock all-aluminum 4.8 for dirt cheap, parts for days. I'm a Ford guy, and if I was looking for a V8 swap into this car, I'd go LS My vote though is to stick with the same recipe you love - a torquey V8 drives a lot different than a rev-happy 4. That being said, it's your car - do what makes you happy, share lots of pics with the hive!
I love the idea of an LS swap, but not here. First, I think the 4.8 was iron block only. The Ford will end up being lighter and is still more compact.
A lot of the weight advantage of the Ford comes from the difference between the weight of the T5 and the T56. The former is much lighter.
Tom1200 said:
As I did my research I was very surprised at how little the weight difference there was between modern twin cam 4 cylinder and a push rod V8, in many cases it's as little as 40lbs and at most 100lbs. Moving components around could negate a large portion of that.
DOHC adds a whole bunch of complication and weight. Pushrods may not be ideal for a whole bunch of reasons, but man can they help with packaging.
The only reason people use T56s with the LS engines is because the LS engines will destroy a T5. Keep the torque down to SBF levels and the T5 will do okay. All the LS engines are basically the same size, so there's no reason to use an iron 4.8 instead of an alloy 5.3 or even a 6.2. You'd definitely have to have the drivetrain strength for the latter.
If the biggest problem with the current motor is parts availability, I'd stay away from anything too old unless it's completely ubiquitous to prevent the issue from coming up again. Old Datsun engine that's been out of production for over 30 years vs a classic small block Ford? Ford all the way.
For the LS route, I'd probably think aluminum LS block de-stroked with the 4.8 crank, etc. Build it to rev high and keep the torque down, as it'll allow use of a smaller trans as well as sticking closer to the original character of the car (just with more power). A large displacement, torquey engine will change the car much more drastically IMO.
Something similar could also be done with an SBF, of course. Or, if it'll fit well enough, a Honda K20 should do the trick. Depending on which of the performance variants you use, it's around 200hp, give or take a few. And revs to just over 8k, so it's got the right character.
Keith Tanner said:aircooled said:Anyone can drive a fast car fast. It takes real skill to drive a slow car fast.
Disagree. It’s just as hard to drive a fast car fast. What will happen is the definition of “fast” will change. And new challenges arise: the need to control throttle application more precisely, braking becomes more important, and turns that didn’t used to be turns appear - turn 1 at Laguna Seca, for example. The people just measure yourself against will change.
Get the engine that’s easier to maintain and most reliable. Then spend your efforts racing instead of looking for weird parts or learning about trying to oil a bike engine in a car.
Thank you - this trope is something Miata people tell themselves to feel better while crying into 110hp dyno sheets (hold the pitchforks, I'm a Miata person). Using 100% of a fast car is much more difficult than using 100% of a slow car - the risk is higher, everything comes at you faster and therefore you have to react faster.
Back on topic - put a Honda engine in it. K24 swap is gaining popularity in Miataland. Sweet NA power, lots of RPM, runs forever.
morello159 said:Keith Tanner said:aircooled said:Anyone can drive a fast car fast. It takes real skill to drive a slow car fast.
Disagree. It’s just as hard to drive a fast car fast. What will happen is the definition of “fast” will change. And new challenges arise: the need to control throttle application more precisely, braking becomes more important, and turns that didn’t used to be turns appear - turn 1 at Laguna Seca, for example. The people just measure yourself against will change.
Get the engine that’s easier to maintain and most reliable. Then spend your efforts racing instead of looking for weird parts or learning about trying to oil a bike engine in a car.
Thank you - this trope is something Miata people tell themselves to feel better while crying into 110hp dyno sheets (hold the pitchforks, I'm a Miata person). Using 100% of a fast car is much more difficult than using 100% of a slow car - the risk is higher, everything comes at you faster and therefore you have to react faster.
Back on topic - put a Honda engine in it. K24 swap is gaining popularity in Miataland. Sweet NA power, lots of RPM, runs forever.
Absolutely correct! Driving a slow car to 100 % of its potential is much easier than a fast car. On the other hand making a slow car faster is much more expensive than just getting a faster car.
Adding 30 horsepower to the OP’s car will be far more expensive than adding 30 horsepower to a small V8.
I'm going to be a bit contrary but with an explaination;
20 years ago I set the D-Sports Racer lap record at my local track, which was about a second a lap slower than the Trans-Am and Formula Mazda lap records. Note that the TA and Formula Mazda records were set by multi-time national champs. For some off the younger members DSR is now an SCCA P2 car. They aren't slow.
The DSR was way easier to drive than my Datsun is. The reason being is set up, on a gutless car you end up with a razor edge set up tending towards oversteer. You can do this in a low powered car because your not going to get wheelspin coming off an 90mph corner. If you're really hustling the Datsun once you turn in you're pretty much a passenger all the way though the corner. With the DSR you didn't have to come up with an overly edgy set up to get the most out of it, in fact it was slower that way, unlike my Datsun which is 2 seconds a lap faster with the edgy set up. Also note the DSR was 26 seconds a lap faster on a 3.4 mile course.
With that said the difference between the slow and fast car is the consequences and the advance warning. Missing a brake marker by a foot at 135 mph is a lot different then getting it wrong at 90mph.
The other issue with slow versus fast is driver competence. I have a friend that sets very competitive times in a 300hp sedan who once asked me to race the DSR and I told him "No, you'll kill yourself in that car" Another friend who's a competent club racer once did 8 laps in it, he'd have done more but crashed it. He later commented that after running the incident though his mind he realized he failed to recognize he was in trouble.
Now back to the topic at hand; the sole reason for the SBF is indeed packaging. While the old 5.0 Fords are limited on power relative to newer motors the goal is around 230-260 at the wheels. At that level the motor would likely do 15 seasons.
My car is currently 10 seconds a lap slower than the Spec Miata loa record at my local track. These old cars have a narrow track and don't corner as fast. The 510s and 2002s that match the Spec Miata record are sporting between 175-200hp at the wheels. In fact a friend who set the SM lap record turns the same lap time in a Datsun 610 that's sporting 200whp.
I'm expecting about 12-15 seconds per lap improvement with the 150hp increase. So with the V8 I may be able to go faster than the Super Miata lap record..........I find this hilarious in the same way that modern Formula Atlantics turn faster lap times than iconic 80s F1 cars. Now if we really want to go crazy we could use Miata suspension bits on the car but I want it to look like a stockish 1200. A Miata is 3" wider than my 1200 which has a 3" wider track than a stock 1200.
It's been fun following this. Keep us posted.
In reply to Tom1200 :
The 5.0 Ford is hidden out of sight, so it’s a bit of a Q ship. I get that! I like your logic and potential durability of a relatively affordable power source.
With regard to slow/fast cars/ drivers. I’ve done that and been there. I have this giant ego that convinced me I was fast. Experience showed me how much I had to learn but I listened, practiced and learned.
Wildly overdriving my Jaguar Special I hung with Sterling Moss, not because I was better than Moss but I set a slow car up to run with the fast boys doing what you propose. My engine was cheap and mildly tuned. But I got over 15 years out of it. Because of that reliability I figured out how to get the most out of the car in different circumstances.
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