But, But I Like Racing My Gutless Car Why Would I Want To Make it Fast?

This year makes 30 years since we started racing the Datsun 1200 and my fabricator is chipping away at my resolve.

Background:

In 1989 I started autocross the car in H-Stock, then DSP then EP. In 1991 Imran my first SCCA race running the car in GT5 strictly because we got a deal on a twin carb motor.

In 2010 I moved to vintage and quickly discovered the car was capable of decent finishes even with my bargain motor builds. I was making the top 5 overall in the small bore group.  I had been running a 1500cc motor in the car which eventually landed me in B-sedan. BS has the very fast 510s and 2002s (175-200 rear wheel horsepower) and my 99whp wonder was good for maybe which meant 9th overall. 

Well after 5 seasons the A15 had a meltdown, so I slapped an A12 back while I built up another   A15 which promptly had a head gasket failure. So I'm now building the A12 back up which throws me back into the small bore group. I love the small bore group I'm still give up a bit of power but if I drive  like an animal I manage some great finishes. It's absolutely great fun, it's like being a combination of Yosemite Sam and the Tasmanian Devil.

So here is where my fabricator comes in:

There is a solid 25 hours in the cylinder head (porting, 5 angle valve job etc) alone. This was a used street head that cost me $700 and I was lucky to find it. Used race heads are now $2000.  I'm now having to order some gaskets from Japan as Nismo no longer supports these cars. Basically my fabricators point is why an I putting so much work into such a low powered motor.

His solution is to put a Ford small block V8 into as those are compact and in near stock trim put out more than enough power for a 1600lb car, not to mention it's the only V8 likely to fit. Now this idea has merit as the car has massive brakes  and he as the ability to make everything fit nicely. 

Additionally my Formula car is vintage legal so even if the vintage group I run with turned the Datsun away (they won't) I'd still have a vintage race car.

So what's holding me back? Currently I 4 wheel drift the car everywhere and having actual horsepower would instantly take away the need for those kind of antics to get a decent lap time. It's currently like riding a bicycle down an icy hill as fast as you dare, basically a V8 version would be so much easier to drive...........where's the fun in that?

When you talk about it in the context of parts availability, it sounds like you're going to end up with a small block in it eventually anyhow.

Why wait?

I fully support keeping a small engine in this car. The Datsun LB110 1200 is one of the best balanced cars I have ever experienced. A total joy even with the stock engine. I also like the small Ford V8, but this is not the car for it.

I just finished swapping an M50 engine into my previously M42 (and previously M10) powered e30. For years I've rallied/rallycrossed it with ~130hp and a well-balanced and quick feel to it. Though the M50 swap is only adding about 100lbs all told, most of that is in the nose and I'm somewhat worried that I'm going to lose the light handling it previously had. 

I had reservations about this up until the moment I started it, and am really hoping I didn't screw up the car by putting ~200hp into it, and doubling the torque. 

The 1200s are indeed less popular than the 510s and Z cars so the race parts are getting ever more expensive. The street motors are a slam dunk as Nissan manufactured the A-series motor up until 2007.

The turn in speed is one of the joys of the car and the V8 will add 200lbs to the front end but even at 2000lbs with the V8 it will still be really light. Note the motor will be pushed back in the chassis a few inches. 

My problem is I love passing people with a 100 horsepower car, especially at track days, sure it's petty and small but at the same time utterly hilarious.............I need help I know.

If what you love is the cornering, then the V8 will let you spend far less of your time driving down the boring straights 

What will really happen is your definition of what a “decent lap time” is will change, and you’ll work just as hard to reach it. Power doesn’t prevent you from having fun in the corners. It’ll open up new possibilities in that regard, actually. And now you’ll be dicing with a different bunch of folks. 

Spoken from the perspective of someone who has driven the exact same car with power ranging from 150 to 466 hp at the wheels. 

Nopenopenopenope.  A V8 would be horrible in that car.  Balance would be awful, all the small parts would die, it would be no fun to drive, and eventually you would go run Formula D.  Go find a twincam 1600 from a B13 Sentra, fabricate a bell housing adapter and an intake for the Webers.  Go back into gt3 and irritate the 510s.

If you are drifting, you aren’t turning the fastest lap times.

In reply to Floating Doc :

There are lots of other small engines that would not unbalance this chassis. The Ford problem is the extra mass which is very far forward.

OK I should note a few things; the car has Z car brakes all the way around, as well as 280ZX front suspension (280ZX is a 3000lb car). There are no rubber bushings in the car, everything is rose joints or metal. The cage is massively overbuilt plus the car has been seam welded in many places..  A 250-300hp V8 won't overstress the chassis.

Most of you would find the handling in my car alarming; it's very loose with a lot of rear brake bias as that results in the fastest lap time but if you don't trail the brakes you'll  think it understeers on entry. I also right and left for brake alternately.  It's a very busy car.

My fabricator has the ability to push the motor back in the chassis and as such the car would not be unbalanced. There are loads of V8 cars that are wonderfully balanced. I've done the math the V8 set up will add 270lbs. The car would come in at 2007lbs with driver. 

My reluctance isn't because of the balance as  it won't drive like a truck. As for other motors. Nissan 2.0 motor set ups will add 160lbs, turbo 2.0 Nissan motors are only 40lbs lighter than the V8 set up. KA24s are something like 360lbs, so that's only around 65lbs lighter than a V8. Twin came 4 cylinder motors are heavy as well. 

My reluctance is strictly the fact that I like dragging an underdog farther forward than it has a right to be. When I road raced motorcycles I ran 125 GP bikes and had no desire to run anything else.

EDIT maj75, if you drive a 1200 in the manner you drive a modern car or the way I drive my Formula car you'll be 2-3 seconds a lap slower than if you 4 wheel drift it everywhere. Watch cars at the Goodwood Members meeting, they use the same approach and half the field are guys who make their living driving modern race cars.

keith you enabler you.........

If the don't allow the car in vintage, doesn't it kind of reduce its usability and fun factor a lot? It sounds like you are with run groups you like, will you be if you run the formula car? Smaller groups then?

Leave it, it sounds like you are getting maximum joy as is.

Why not a Nissan V6?  Not as big a leap as the V8, good parts availability, more power and less potential impact to the car’s balance.

There’s also the Nissan L-series motors, which are still kicking around and parts aren’t as hard to acquire for them.

A more modern Nissan inline 4 might be an option as well.  Maybe an SR20DE or some derivative?

I think these would all be better options than a SBF.  Then again it isn’t my car, so take this all as free advice and do with it as you wish.

In reply to Stefan :

Mmmmm L28 with itb's. Glorious! 

Fun to build and play with, but would that fun wear off after the smoke clears? Will you miss the original set-up?

Anyone can drive a fast car fast.  It takes real skill to drive a slow car fast.

Your car sounds like a blast to drive as it is.  There has to be SOME other small, light motor that you could sub in.

I tried to test fit a 318 in my 1200 and it didn’t fit between the cage, the engine bay is TINY front to back and side to side.  Would keep on with the A15 or A12 builds, there are parts out there though they are getting more expensive.

It seems like an SR20 would be a good option here. All aluminum, twin cam, RWD configuation, available parts...

http://datsun1200.com/modules/mediawiki/index.php?title=SR_engine_swap

maj75 said:

If you are drifting, you aren’t turning the fastest lap times.

A four wheel drift isn't "drifting," it's using every ounce of grip available in the tires.  Some tires, especially bias ply tires, have a shockingly high slip angle at maximum grip.

Would a ca18det hit the spot? Or maybe an sr16ve?. Alternatively, how about a Suzuki g13b? I have serious love for the g13b, they rev like no tomorrow, sound sweet, nice and light and they're pretty close to your original displacement.

Left of field, and probably destined to screw the pooch on weight distribution, but how about an rb20? Because small capacity inline 6.....

maj75 said:

If you are drifting, you aren’t turning the fastest lap times.

Dirt trackers might disagree.

BEC? You could split the 4cyl/v8 difference with a Honda ST1100 v4 maybe?

aircooled said:

Anyone can drive a fast car fast.  It takes real skill to drive a slow car fast.

Disagree. It’s just as hard to drive a fast car fast. What will happen is the definition of “fast” will change. And new challenges arise: the need to control throttle application more precisely, braking becomes more important, and turns that didn’t used to be turns appear - turn 1 at Laguna Seca, for example. The people just measure yourself against will change. 

Get the engine that’s easier to maintain and most reliable. Then spend your efforts racing instead of looking for weird parts or learning about trying to oil a bike engine in a car. 

Appleseed said:

maj75 said:

If you are drifting, you aren’t turning the fastest lap times.

Dirt trackers might disagree.

They aren't drifting either.

Dirt and other loose surfaces has a slip angle all its own.  It's kind of fascinating.

24 posts in and I'm the first to suggest putting a Miata engine in it?

NA/NB or NC.  Parts are pretty well supported and I expect it to be that way for a while.

Knurled. said:

Appleseed said:

maj75 said:

If you are drifting, you aren’t turning the fastest lap times.

Dirt trackers might disagree.

They aren't drifting either.

 

Dirt and other loose surfaces has a slip angle all its own.  It's kind of fascinating.

And there's a difference between drifting (loose) and drifting (yo).