Check out the shot that accompanies this blog and you’ll notice something. No, not that the driver in the recognizable helmet is handsome and suave, just doing some laps of the Nürburgring on the ol’ expense account.
Well, you might catch that part, too, but the real thing I’m talking about is the windows. Specifically, their upness.
Literally every other …
I thought it was weird that Gainesville required me to put my windows up for the drag passes.
I think windows fully up OR fully down should be acceptable.
So what do BMW drivers do if they can't give point by's? I'm fairly certain those cars aren't even equipped with turn signals.
as someone who spends their fair share of time with an arm out the window, I'd love to use turn signals. And the aero advantage would be huge with the low power cars
I've often wondered the same thing. There are advantages and disadvantages to each. With that being said, why can't that be at the drivers discretion? Let the driver choose which is best suited for him or her and their car. Should be a choice in my book.
A couple thoughts:
First, flashing turn signals on the opposite side to the one you want the other driver to pass on implies that you're moving that direction, but you're not. The car being passed is supposed to hold his line and let the passing car go off-line to pass, so it's the passing car that is "moving".
Second, turn signals for passing only work if every car on track has turn signals. Purpose-built race cars usually don't, and production cars modified into race cars often have them either removed or made inoperable by other modifications (custom wiring harness, replacement of steering column, etc).
(Then, of course, we have to consider BMWs... :) )
On the topic of point-by's: rarely do I see point bys from fully built race cars, because they also happen to have safety nets over windows...
Meanwhile Hooked on Driving started to allow windows up at their track days in the US.
I've often wondered the same, but nobody is sharing the data used to come to these conclusions... If they even have it anymore. I'm guessing most clubs are playing follow the leader here too, rather than relying on their own data and independently all coming to the same conclusion. The problem with that, is that means they also don't understand the reasons and are entire unable to know whether or not those reasons actually even apply to them. So the question is, who actually has enough influence to actually make meaningful conversation happen at the organizational level here?
It could also be largely insurance based, but again, with the right data that should be something the leading org(s) should be able to drive the change.
I showed up at a advanced lapping day with a Spec Miata track only racer and was told I could not run window nets. It seemed like a large step backwards in safety...
Maybe age has addled my brain, but I could swear when I drove the 'ring the instructor has me signal on the side I wanted the passing car to pass me on, i.e. left signal = pass me on the left.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:First, flashing turn signals on the opposite side to the one you want the other driver to pass on implies that you're moving that direction, but you're not. The car being passed is supposed to hold his line and let the passing car go off-line to pass, so it's the passing car that is "moving".
As I've recently discovered, at least once you throw a large number of cars with a significant performance gap in a w2w environment, holding 'your' line is not necessarily the same as holding 'the racing' line. In my mind, signaling like that wouldn't be telling them what direction you're 'moving', so much as what type of line they should expect you to hold.
sobiloff said:Maybe age has addled my brain, but I could swear when I drove the 'ring the instructor has me signal on the side I wanted the passing car to pass me on, i.e. left signal = pass me on the left.
Nope. Standard is to signal the intent of your car, not to give directions to another car. Right signal = I'm going (or staying) right. Left is I'm going/staying left. It's actually in my handbook from my licensing class.
wvumtnbkr said:I thought it was weird that Gainesville required me to put my windows up for the drag passes.
I think windows fully up OR fully down should be acceptable.
Yes, drag racing pretty much always requires windows up. I think they believe it's a bigger hazard to have debris come in than getting drivers out.
Windows down has always made sense to me.
I feel like so little of the safety discussion at the HPDE level is data driven. It is tribal knowledge and superstition. Maybe one dude 30 years ago made that decision and everyone has blindly followed it since then. Windows is just one.
4pt harness with ASM is one I hear a huge amount of FUD about. Even though most national organizations allow then in one form or another a lot of people haven't updated their knowledge.
Harnesses with a harness bar is another. Again most national orgs allow it. Most credible scientific research I've heard of says that they are safer even without the rollbar. BUT its not accessible where I can point to it and show people. For some reason people seem to think they would have enough to core strength to physically duck in a roll over event.
I'd love to see more studies cited for safety rules in general. The endless arguments where nobody can prove anything is frustrating.
I'm so used to Lemons where front windows must be down at all times. I drive slow cars so I'm pretty comfortable giving point bys both directions and even point bys with a window net and/or wrist restraints.
It's been more than a decade since I've done HST (High Speed Touring) at Hallett. HST is their version of HPDE.
Their point by rule was to point to the side you wanted the car behind to pass. Arm straight out from the driver, pass me on the left, arm over your head/roof pointing toward the passenger side, pass me on the right.
It's not so much that the safety worker is going to pull you out the window it's that having the window down makes it easier for the safety worker to communicate with the driver after an incident and open the door if that's needed.
While most of us on this board will of course be calm cool and collected after stuffing our car into a tire barrier most people are more than a little panicked and it's a lot easier to calm someone down and asses injuries if you don't have to break the window or yell at them to give you access first.
Driven5 said:codrus (Forum Supporter) said:First, flashing turn signals on the opposite side to the one you want the other driver to pass on implies that you're moving that direction, but you're not. The car being passed is supposed to hold his line and let the passing car go off-line to pass, so it's the passing car that is "moving".
As I've recently discovered, at least once you throw a large number of cars with a significant performance gap in a w2w environment, holding 'your' line is not necessarily the same as holding 'the racing' line. In my mind, signaling like that wouldn't be telling them what direction you're 'moving', so much as what type of line they should expect you to hold.
I'm confused by your use of the term "w2w" -- to me that implies a racing environment in which passing is contested. HPDE is not "wheel to wheel".
Assuming you're talking about HPDE the important thing is for the car being passed to be predictable, and the best way to accomplish that is for the car being passed to follow the same line it would normally follow. A gentle lift on the throttle makes passing easier when the car doing the passing has less horsepower without compromising that predictability.
IMHO Time Trial, Time Attack, etc has messed this up, because they try to run under HPDE passing rules while adding incentives for drivers not to allow passing.
theruleslawyer said:Maybe one dude 30 years ago made that decision and everyone has blindly followed it since then. Windows is just one.
I've always assumed that the rule comes from the procedures used for race cars. When HPDE came along the safety crews at race tracks already had long-established procedures for handling crashes, and those rules were set up to require no side windows in production-based race cars. Rather than devise new safety procedures they just kept using the ones they already had, which meant that street cars in HPDE ran with windows down.
In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :
Does this article not also apply to w2w racing, where the practice of windows down for safety appears to have largely originated from here? Based on the racing I've seen from other continents, they appear to run w2w with their windows up, presumably for safety as well. I suspect that's similarly where their practice originated from for non-w2w too. The question in my mind is what data, if any, was used that led to these respective decisions?... And if it hasn't been revisited with more recent data, perhaps it should be.
It really doesn't matter much which way the blinkers are used, as long as it's consistent. Which also means if pretty much everybody else already does it the same way, and there's no compelling reason to do otherwise, we probably should too.
So here are my thoughts on windows down.
A corner worker or rescue person can quickly reach in the car and turn it off.
Aforementioned point by.
If I have a big accident / roll over / fire I can get out quickly if the door won't open and the power windows are rendered in operable. As an add on to windows down in an accident the side window glass won't be going everywhere. Yes, Some cars and people don't lend themselves to going out the windows.
As for the buffeting; if you have a race prepared car you have this issue already.
Only things I have for windows up............as an instructor I'd appreciate the car being quieter inside and on the rare occasion it rains here it would keep the car dry inside.
I thought it was obviously for safety. Not driver extraction but avoiding shattered glass for the driver or on the track in the event of an accident.
Driven5 said:Does this article not also apply to w2w racing, where the practice of windows down for safety appears to have largely originated from here?
I was confused becasue I thought you were talking about using blinkers and holding lines for point-bys, which isn't really relevant in a racing context.
I agree that in principle it's fine so long as everyone agrees. The problem with blinkers is that people don't agree which one is more intuitive. I suspect this is because we're trying to repurpose a signalling device that already has an existing meaning which doesn't translate over perfectly.
Great article. Things that have always bugged me. I think there is a North America vs Europe divide here as well.
Nurburgring is a bit of an odd duck as a race track. It is a public toll road where general road rules apply on the tourist days. Signal for the direction you are going. There is no passing allowed on the left. No specific rules for windows. When the track is closed for an event (e.g. track day or sanctioned race) then different rules apply. I had a track day there a while ago. Even then the signaling is for where you want to go (although passing is OK on left or right). Most track days are not "educational" so a point-by is not needed. Just be aware of your surroundings and drive predictably.
I was fortunate enough to also have a track day at Spa on the same trip. Same signaling rules. No concern about window position. No point-by needed.
Both events were intuitive and well behaved even though the speed differentials were massive in many cases. A bit like the difference between left lane driving in Europe and North America. That is another rabbit hole to go down...
The window down with no obstruction is likely more of a hazard for typical open lapping / HPDE events. An arm can make contact with a wall in a side impact or a get crush injury in a rollover. This happens with some accidents on public roads. Windows up contains the flailing body parts. Same reason for nets in race cars.
The need to forgo this safety solely to enable point-by's does not seem totally logical to me. I know there is the "But race car!" argument. Ok, no nets and point-by. For the street cars, just signal and keep the windows closed.
Hopefully there is a rethink at the organizational level for this stuff.
I think windows up is clearly safer, especially since no one is running window nets or arm restraints for HPDE. Windows up will keep your arms in the car.
Side windows in cars are tempered safety glass. When it shatters it's harmless--so there's zero point in avoiding shattered glass. Also, modern airbags are made to work with windows up (they *are* going to shatter the windows, though).
Windows are required to be rolled up for rally, though if you break one on stage you're allowed to run with a window net in place. It's nice to have it up for the dust, but it'd be nice to have to down for the ventilation.
I don't think tracks/clubs generally make sane safety decisions. Or governments. Or people in general. But that's probably a different topic.
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