Buying Performance Versus Building Performance

I use to shun those that would just purchase performance. I was firmly entrenched in the crowd that take something that was good and build it in to your vision of what you think it should be. It was all about the journey of creating something and less about the destination of actually driving it.  

However as I have aged I find my self not enjoying those late nights wrenching and instead. Have started to see the merits of just purchasing something that meets my needs. 

Am I just getting old and lazy or is it an age and wisdom thing?  

The brand new Corvette keeps getting better and better (and cheaper).

In reply to dean1484 :

I think it's age and wisdom.

Of course I mostly seem to have the former, but I still believe that I'm better off modifying a car myself rather than have someone else to do the work. At least that way it's easy to figure out who berkeleyed things up.

Answering on behalf of street driven cars:

Would you drive your own creation to Florida? The reliability of new cars is seductive and so is the relative lack of maintenance compared to hotrods. 

The other thing is that the OEM guys dont leave much on the table in terms of performance and reducing weight or compromising n reliability and comfort are about the only low-hanging fruit to be had. Aftermarket performance parts seldom live-up to the marketing hype in terms of what they promise the buyer.

I am as addicted as ever to the fabrication and wrenching because it scratches the creative itch, but glad to have a car like the FRS in the driveway for daily duty.

Pete

dean1484 said:

Am I just getting old and lazy or is it an age and wisdom thing?  

 

You're getting old.

I've switched to motorcycles because they're so much less work. I like a performance car but I don't have the energy and ambition to build things the way I used to. Most of the cars I find interesting have marginal performance, even in performance trim so I would probably start with something halfway there (like the previously mentioned FRS), and make it what I think it should have been from the factory.

In reply to dean1484 :

Age and wisdom.

Until recently, I worked on putting peoples' toys together, and a common theme I saw was people being less satisfied with the car after modifying it, sometimes selling it a month or two after spending tens of thousands of dollars, because it no longer felt pleasant to drive.  Aftermarket components almost universally have worse fit, finish, and engineering than OE.

This is why I'm really impressed when companies like FM put together packages that people laud as feeling OE-like.  That is high praise, and it makes a car that you don't dread because it's either unpleasant to live with or a maintenance nightmare.

This is 100% why I bought the S60R, it does everything I could reasonably want and is engineered to do so.  Its replacement, when that time comes, will also be something that I will feel no urge to modify.  It is also 100% why I acquired and have been slowly rebuilding a stock-as-practical RX-7.  I have the nice modified one that I never drive because it's unpleasant in a lot of ways.

In reply to Knurled. :

There is a whole lot of truth in your post.

This has really come out of me getting my semi dream car this weekend.  Realizing you can plunk down $20k and get a car that is sub five seconds 0-60 seats four in complete comfort. It is comfortable in the twisty bits as well as just eating up the mikes on the highway. It has more technology than you ever need is AWD and in my opinion really great looking while not attracting to much attention. Add this to getting immediate satisfaction of driving it now versus living with a project that doubles a lawn art from time to time.  

It is reasonably compelling argument.  The only down side I have is anything that is factory built will always be a compromise.  Building it means you get it exactly the way you want it.  The other thing that I have always thrived on is solving problems with engineering.  Building a car is all about this and I love that.  

You know I just realized that building something that you think you want versus what you really want is a big problem.  

I went through this with my last Porsche. I built it as a race car and it was great at that but the more I drove it on the street the more I started un modding it and bringing it back to stock.

Being able to tell the sex of earthworms when you run them over because of your race oriented suspension may be a feature that we think we want but you quickly realize that you really don’t want it. 

In reply to dean1484 :

Don't leave us hanging, what did you buy?

Don't get me wrong, the bullding is fun too, and a large reason why I used to have that job.  But, as a perfectionist, nothing I did was ever good enough for me.  At least if it was OE engineered, any imperfections are someone else's fault, and it is AMAZING how liberating that is.

In reply to Knurled. :

2012 CSL550 Biturbo 4matic. 

Serious amount of I am going to kill you hooligan attitude wrapped in velvet gloves hiding in a tuxedo. 

dean1484 said:

You know I just realized that building something that you think you want versus what you really want is a big problem.  

I went through this with my last Porsche. I built it as a race car and it was great at that but the more I drove it on the street the more I started un modding it and bringing it back to stock.

Being able to tell the sex of earthworms when you run the over because of your race oriented suspension may be a feature that we think we want but you quickly realize that you really don’t want it. 

I've a friend who I spent several hours talking with the other weekend.  He was in the boat where he had a project car that he had been working on for most of his adult life, and he started it when he was in his 20s and could tolerate things like rod-end all the things, and kart-like suspension travel, and zero interior... which are interesting and exciting in one's 20s.  But in one's 40s, that just ain't fun anymore, and when you have other priorities like having a family that you want to go on road trips with, it turns from a fun project with an awesome goal, into a task that you have to complete because that's just what you've been doing with your life, and when it is over you will end up with a statue, not something to enjoy driving.

I don't want to put words in his mouth, but that is the very brief version, and another word for "age and wisdom" is "maturity", and I guess part of that is accepting personal change, and moving on does not mean accepting defeat, it just means moving on.

dean1484 said:

In reply to Knurled. :

2012 CSL550 Biturbo 4matic. 

Serious amount of I am going to kill you hooligan attitude wrapped in velvet gloves hiding in a tuxedo. 

I didn't even know that was a thing.  What wonderful times we live in!

I'm hoping that RS3s or ATS-Vs depreciate down to that range, as I wait and see how well they hold up.

I dunno. I still like both. Which is why I love the challenge so much I think. 

To me, I don't care so much if it's bought or built, but I am interested in "efficiency" (ie, whatever trait you want per dollar). 

So how fast can you go per dollar? Or how much lux can you get per dollar? Or how many horsepower? Etc.

This is also probably why I like used supersedans.

There's nothing that says you can't take a factory built machine and tweak it a bit to be more in line with your vision.

Speaking of RS3s. My friend picked this up. Taking delivery Thursday. We are going to be meeting up Friday I am excited to take a look at it. 

One of 250 made. 

Brett_Murphy said:

There's nothing that says you can't take a factory built machine and tweak it a bit to be more in line with your vision.

That's what I was talking about and where I am now.

I think a far bigger problem than aftermarket parts not being as good as OE is that people are just not very good at putting together what they really want. They either don['t know what that is, or they don't know how to get there. They do the same thing with many parts that is very common with cams. They like the big number, and on paper it's awesome, but on the road it's not.

Currntly waiting for ATS prices to drop.

He paid half retail for a car with only 9k miles on it.  Got to love the depreciation of German cars. 

dean1484 said:

The only down side I have is anything that is factory built will always be a compromise.  Building it means you get it exactly the way you want it.  The other thing that I have always thrived on is solving problems with engineering.  Building a car is all about this and I love that.  

Everything is a compromise.  While building it means you have the potential to get it exactly the way you want it, the (lack of) availability of both components and builder knowledge/skill frequently prevents that from being realized...Which leads directly into the noted desire for problem solving and engineering being an important piece of the puzzle.  Too often people just slap a bunch of off-the-shelf (bought) components together, still all with individual compromises determined by somebody else, and basically just hope it'll be the right set of compromises for them.

Beyond the financial side, building is largely a demonstration to ones self and/or the world that you do in fact possess the knowledge and skills to so. This is why many people often attach significant value to it. I think for at least some people though, the luster of that can be dulled after having done so a sufficient number of times.

I think there's room for both. It's just a matter of, can you figure out what you want before you build it? And if you buy it, does someone make the exact thing you want? Or at least 90% of the way there, and then you customize the last 10% yourself.

Wrenching on (or building) fast cars and driving fast cars are two different hobbies.

I find that now that I'm older and better compensated I like spending my time doing something rather than building something in order to do that same thing. I'm lucky that I can mostly afford to purchase capable tools with which to do the desired activity. And I still enjoy working on stuff, but I like making improvements instead of just trying to make something work in the first place.

There's a happy medium, but yeah I think with age you are more willing to drop more money in the first place then to modify cars. For instance, I know my 250 whp Miata was a blast, but I'm not daft to say that a SS 1LE with wheels/tires/pads wouldn't be faster. It is, and I know this because I've driven both on multiple tracks and it's faster at even the low speed tracks. 

In reply to ultraclyde :

I agree with you. I am also in the position to not be living hand to mouth so there is that. I have been there and it was a driving force behind many of my car “projects”. I could not afford a 911 turbo so let’s build a 944 to match its performance.  In hind site if I had just got a second job and got paid for the hours I spent wrenching I probibly could have purchased a 911 in a year instead of building a 944.

There is one other thing that has changed. I generally don’t work on my street cars any more. I just take it to my local independent shop and have them do what needs to be done.  I consider my self lucky to have this option. Basically I got sick of working on cars to keep them running and road worthy. Pad and rotor changes are the one exception. They are so easy and the savings is huge compared to what shops charge. I would rather take the money saved and put it in to better pads and rotors. 

I'm still debating.  While I "want" to build up a car myself, I have a severe lack of time and space to do so.  And in many ways, I want the car to retain as much of it's original feel while adding enough modern traits to make it pleasant to drive in today's world. Typically that means a bit more power, more highway friendly gearing, better HVAC and insulation and improved ICE.  That is what I want out of my GT6 and 1800ES with maybe a little more of a short burst performance focus with the Spitfire. The MINI isn't really a project at all. I just drive and maintain it. I bought it with most of the modifications I'd want to do already done (one reason I bought it).  That said, part of me wants to trade the MINI for another Mini, but that would put it into the same class as the GT6 and 1800ES.  Another part of me just wants to wait until the MINI qualifies for classic car insurance.

But the biggest "buy vs. build" debate I have is towards my camper van conversion.  What I "want" doesn't really exist at a semi-affordable price (I'd literally be looking at near $200K to have a vendor build what I want starting with a new Transit 3500), so the DIY build route with my E-350 is pretty much my only option.  However, I still have those same time/space problems mentioned above. Especially working 350 miles from home and any of my projects. 

Logically, it doesn’t always make sense to build your own. 

Years ago I turned my E30 318is into a track car. Engine swap, suspension, and everything. In those days, you could buy a solid E30 M3 for $7-10k. I spent more than that on my project car, and then chased broken rocker arms, oil starvation, toasted wheel bearings, etc. for the next couple of seasons. And I was happy to sell my car for $7 a couple of years ago ... whereas an M3 would have netted at least 5 times as much.

You also learn to appreciate why factory homologation specials have upgraded hubs,  brakes, oil coolers, baffling, etc. to allow them to run at the redline all day and hold up to continued track (ab)use.

Now I race a 190E 2.3-16 “Cosworth” and I appreciate all the little factory upgrades that make the car dead reliable on the track. Same with my Lancer Evo VIII compared to a tuned Japanese compact car. Or a GT3 compared to a modified 996 C2. Factory track specials are generally more robust and problem-free to start with ... then you recover more of your money when the time comes to sell.