Buying Performance Versus Building Performance

Knurled. said:

dean1484 said:

In reply to Knurled. :

2012 CSL550 Biturbo 4matic. 

Serious amount of I am going to kill you hooligan attitude wrapped in velvet gloves hiding in a tuxedo. 

I didn't even know that was a thing.  What wonderful times we live in!

 

I'm hoping that RS3s or ATS-Vs depreciate down to that range, as I wait and see how well they hold up.

Wife approved

This little badge is the difference between being really good and off the hook bonkers performance. 

There are are no other hints of that this car is versus the normally optioned one. The normal ones either have no badging or the have a badge that sais  Blueeffecency. 

Ok maybe the rotors and calipers do also. 

In reply to Knurled. :

You noted you have a V60R that is a very nice car. It occurred to me that at some point I think I run out of talent to build a car to the same spec as that or to equal my new Merc.  Maybe it is just that my standards have increased so the bar has been raised to what I want in a car and since I am no Chip Foose or David  Kindigit the only way we can reach that bar is to purchase versus build it.  

There are a lot of forms of performance I'm willing to pay for because they are cheaper to buy than to build.  That ends WELLLL short of actually buying an 'expensive' new car, though. I've only been tempted by a few new cars and they were all in the 20k's. Being a professional mechanic is a factor there because I can't buy anything new 30k and above that i'd rather own than an older high end car.  I mean, I really enjoyed my 5.1s 0-60 30mpg hybrid luxury sedan Lexus. I really enjoyed my $12k 911. I've been sorely tempted by $18k CL65 AMGs with 600hp. For 30k+ you better be selling me the effing moon. I've driven some very special low production 500-600hp cars that were more or less right up my alley other than being well over that 30k number and they never moved me enough to change the calculus. I'm not saying i'll never own a Ferrari, a Tesla with Ludicrous mode, etc etc, but as a mechanic i COULD get things like that in the 30s and make up the rest with brain equity if it needed something, so taking more than that out of my family finances personally doesnt have any appeal to me. 

I have the same problem with housing prices based on my family having built houses.  At least with a new car 50% of the price is not profit and it doesn't increase in value in spite of the fact that it's getting worse every year. Of course, a lot of people are kind of counting on that since the average middle class persons net worth would probably be cut by a third to half in their retirement years if houses depreciated like cars. I did the mortgage thing once, but as of right now I don't plan to do it again. 

Get off my lawn. 

I LIKE my lawn!!

It’s quickly getting to the Pont where the factory built performance car is not the compromise. The hand built one is. 

Modern cars are SO GOOD at so many things, it’s hard to beat them. Hand built cars are often only good at one thing. They can drag race, OR they can corner, OR they are comfortable, OR they are luxurious...

Bew cars are pretty darned good at all of those things. Anything less is a compromise. 

It shows at the $20XX Challenge. Hundreds of people spent countless hours trying to build a car that performs, and yet VERY FEW have out-performed a bone stock Miata. 

To go back to the original topic:

In RCR's review of the WRX STI he talked heavily of the culture and groupthink that the aftermarket will "always" make a better product than OEM, blaming it on Gran Turismo. When OEM manufacturers test parts and components on the 100,000-mile level for stability and reliability now, it's very hard for me to think things like lightened flywheels and the like are close to spec. It's one of the big reasons why so many MR2 guys are swapping stock toyota 2GRs in their mid-engined runabouts- we want 300HP that we dont have to screw with. So yeah, I totally agree that it's age and wisdom. Why fix wha't ain't broken?

dean1484 said:

In reply to Knurled. :

2012 CSL550 Biturbo 4matic. 

Serious amount of I am going to kill you hooligan attitude wrapped in velvet gloves hiding in a tuxedo. 

So you made the car equivalent of Jason Statham ?

I like doing OEM+ type of mods.  On my Golf R there's tons of that stuff available from the Audi S3/RS3.  OEM VAG parts that I know are going to fit/look/work perfectly. 

I'm to the point now that I'd rather just buy the better performing car, if it's available.  I wanted a hatchback and if Audi had brought the RS3 hatch over, I would've bought it.  They didn't so I got the next best thing, a Golf R.

I like wrenching in the garage but only on projects that I want to do, or simple maintenance.  Constantly having to work on your DD gets old, really fast.  When my GX470 started doing that to me, it was time for it to go.

I have always enjoyed 'building a better moustrap', and have had any number of projects over the years.  Our current track Miata was acquired bone stock, and everything that's been done to it was done by me, with the exception of mounting tires, and alignments.  I've become much more patient as I've grown older, so the process has slowed a bit, but I still take pride in carefully molding the project to my goals and trying to always do it right the first time.

As I get older, I do find the work gets a little harder every year, but it's still a very satisfying thing to be competitive at the track, and be able to say "I built it...".

All of that having been said... the performance of new cars is simply amazing.  Last year, we had bought a '17 Mustang GT and I was really impressed with it.  I started planning the usual light mods for occasional track duty, and then I started thinking about the $$ I was going to spend, and should I really be looking at GT350s instead?  To make a long story short, we came across a good deal on a 2700 mile '18 ZL1 and bought it. 

Sure, it was expensive... but, it's incredible.  All day comfortable?  Sure.  Great stereo?  Yup.  Track capable suspension, tires and brakes.  Yes.  650 berkeleying horsepower?  YES.   

I don't think it's possible to build a car in your garage to do everything as well as something like our ZL1.  And it has a factory warranty.  I could build a track car that's faster for 1/2 the cost... most of us here probably could.  But I sure as hell wouldn't want to drive it every day...  or very far.

I'll always have that desire to build things, but if you're talking about a car to actually drive around, it's pretty hard to beat what you can buy these days.

dean1484 said:

He paid half retail for a car with only 9k miles on it.  Got to love the depreciation of German cars. 

Indeed.

I'm only fixating on the RS3 because it's the only one with a five cylinder, and that is rather important to me.

Heck, I'm in the middle of an Audi-based five cylinder build, and if I wait a couple years, I can pick up an RS3 for less than it would take to finish the car to my satisfaction.  And it would still have less power, less refinement, less livability, much worse handling, and maintenance/repair is a matter of making things instead of ringing up Worldpac.  (And I can get a used car loan for 1% interest, versus %usurious for credit cards!)

This is a lot of why I've stepped down my goals significantly... it's cheaper to buy than build.

Rodan said:

 

 And it has a factory warranty. 

 

^ This

fasted58 said:

Rodan said:

 

 And it has a factory warranty. 

 

^ This

Not to beat a dead horse, but I wouldn't always trust that warranty...

In reply to dean1484 :

I take it you bought that CLS. Mercedes is really good at invoking this type of thought. I want a biturbo Benz but it'll have to wait until I can bring the s600 back to former glory or better.

dean1484 said:

Am I just getting old and lazy or is it an age and wisdom thing?  

 

For me it's all of the above plus I have other things I need to get done besides hobbying on a car.

yupididit said:

In reply to dean1484 :

I take it you bought that CLS. Mercedes is really good at invoking this type of thought. I want a biturbo Benz but it'll have to wait until I can bring the s600 back to former glory or better.

Yep I sure did.  Should finalize everything tomorrow. Pick it up I hope on Tuesday. It is going in to the dealer for fluids and filters Monday. 

Every good performance car is built by a passionate team or individual. I think the phrase "built not bought" is dumb because all cars are built. Some people aren't passionate about building and can afford to spend a little extra on someone who is.

I'm still at the point where I enjoy building what I want. Though I agree that deciding what you actually want is 80-90% of the struggle when in the process of building something. That's where I am with my 2002 and E34. I still look forward to seeing those cars through the process, even at my glacial pace, and hope I'll really enjoy the finished product when all is said and done.

I also appreciate a car that doesn't really need and modifications beyond some very basic stuff. That's where my E39 M5 slots into my garage. That car doesn't need more power and making it more track focused doesn't really appeal to me. It's just an excellent car as it came from the factory. I will do little things here and there, but it will remain largely stock for this reason.

Ultimately, I think the car hobby is a broadchurch and there's plenty of room to experience it whatever way you want. Nothing wrong with building or buying as long as you enjoy the ride.

SVreX said:

Modern cars are SO GOOD at so many things, it’s hard to beat them. Hand built cars are often only good at one thing. They can drag race, OR they can corner, OR they are comfortable, OR they are luxurious...

New cars are pretty darned good at all of those things. Anything less is a compromise. 

This is so true that I'd actually argue they're too good. The ultimate performance level that has to be attained to create any real sense of drama has gotten ridiculous. Anymore I see 'built' as largely a means of bringing more emotion back into the experience at a lower point of entry vs 'bought'.

Now sure is a great time to be either old, lazy, or wise with you're automotive decisions

Ya the warranty is big. I am getting one with my car. 

In the past I was the warranty.  

Newer cars are so good that with a few little tweaks (lowering springs to drop the center of gravity while still maintaining ride comfort/adaptive damping, good tires, maybe a conservative dyno tune to boost power under the curve) they'll out-perform most things that can be built for that kind of money and still be comfortable and reliable enough to cross the continent. Your finished product can only be as good as your platform, and newer platforms are generally better than older ones.

Some of this is the quality of new car available. When the biggest baddest muscle car was tickling 200hp optimistically, rattling your teeth out, and still idling like crap, uncomfortable, and handling like a modern day Sprinter, building something seemed pretty obvious. Now a blue collar salary can get you triple that horsepower in something that will have a long warranty, not smell, idle at the drivethrough, and generally be pretty great. Building something objectively better than, say, a new top shelf Camaro is actually pretty hard.

It depends on where you want to start and tickles your fancy.

I’m still a cheapass and poor, so I build everything. If I could have afforded a new Hellcat Redeye Challenger, it’d be in the garage. I’m still plugging away on a V8 Ranger in the mean time. Can I buy one already done? Yep sure can see a bunch floating around Facebook for sale. My only problem is what happens when it breaks? How many cuss words will I utter because the previous builder/owner took a shortcut that shouldn’t have happened? I’ve worked on those built by someone else... Ugh. 

OE I expect OE compromising, but if I need to repair it, everything fits.