While some cage rules require a firewall brace, many are incorporated near dash level. Especially on older cars not designed for low-offset frontal impacts, consider also adding a forward footwell brace. While it sounds like the driver may have had some relatively minor foot injuries, it could have been considerably worse without that extra bracing.
Glad to hear the driver is okay!
As the owner of a 944 track car, I'd love to know more about the car. Do you happen to know if there is a build thread somewhere?
No idea. It was one of the two fastest cars on the track for the weekend, with the other being an SN95 Cobra. Where the Cobra relied on brute force, this relied on aero-induced grip. The thing you can't see there is the extensive underbody aero, including substantial tunnels. It's a VERY high quality and well developed build, with considerable financial backing. They were live streaming in-car video, and possibly telemetry to the pits, so the race officials were already at their (large) trailer looking at the incident before the ambulance even brought the driver off the track. Look up "UBoot Rennen Werks". I think they may have a UToob channel. Seemed like good people from my limited interaction with them.
That looks like the 924 from Arthur.
I did not have those braces in my 2nd gen rx7 when I hit the wall at Charlotte with the drivers side front.
Luckily, I pulled my feet back from the pedals because the brake pedal now lives where the throttle pedal was. Floor was pushed up about 6 inches and just folded over.
I bruised the E36 M3 out of my knee by breaking the steering column WITH my leg. Luckily all I had was 2 broken ribs.
My new car has bars there!
I have a rally spec cage in the Datsun; we added the sill bars and footwell intrusion bars about 20 years ago.
1200s are light because the sheet metal is really thin on these cars. I'm also using .120 wall 1.75" tubing even though technically I could have gone with 1.5".
Saving 25-30lbs on a cage didn't seem worth the risk to me.
There's video from inside the Porsche of the crash. Looks like a pretty hard hit.
Unfortunately, that kind of "push around a much slower car in a weird spot" isn't unusual behavior for this car. They weren't racing the Miata they made contact with (different class), and this happened 11 minutes in to a 6 hour race. The Lucky Dog rules are pretty clear that the car making the pass has full responsibility for doing so cleanly, and that means not surprising the passed car when you appear somewhere they didn't expect you to be.
Oh, also, this is why our team doesn't race at Pacific Raceways. This track eats cars. That same bump at any sanely designed tracked sends you both spinning off in to the grass, a gravel trap, or maybe armco. But at Pacific, in that spot you hit a ditch-then-berm killer combo.
Matthew Kennedy said:Oh, also, this is why our team doesn't race at Pacific Raceways. This track eats cars. That same bump at any sanely designed tracked sends you both spinning off in to the grass, a gravel trap, or maybe armco. But at Pacific, in that spot you hit a ditch-then-berm killer combo.
Have you brought that up with the track? They seem pretty willing to listen to racers/patrons. The track was designed in the 50s...
In reply to iansane :
They added a bunch of armco this year in parts of the track, but not in that part. I know it's a common complaint that it's a sketchy track to race on.
I've never been there and might be missing something obvious but that seemed like a pretty reasonable pass to me. Plus it looked like they got hit on the rear meaning they had pulled at least even with the other car on a pretty straight section.
am I just not seeing something?
I've never been there either, but that Miata driver seemed like he was oblivious to the Porsche. He was in the middle of the track for no reason, and then moved to the right after the p car was pretty much passed him. Without seeing another angle I put that Miata at fault. Just because an organization says the passer is responsible for a clean pass does not mean a passee can't be the cause of a crash.
Agreed. The Porsche seemed almost completely by the Miata when the contact happened. The Miata basically PIT maneuvered the passing car.
Driven5 said:No idea. It was one of the two fastest cars on the track for the weekend, with the other being an SN95 Cobra. Where the Cobra relied on brute force, this relied on aero-induced grip. The thing you can't see there is the extensive underbody aero, including substantial tunnels. It's a VERY high quality and well developed build, with considerable financial backing. They were live streaming in-car video, and possibly telemetry to the pits, so the race officials were already at their (large) trailer looking at the incident before the ambulance even brought the driver off the track. Look up "UBoot Rennen Werks". I think they may have a UToob channel. Seemed like good people from my limited interaction with them.
Thanks for the background. I'll check them out!
In reply to dyintorace :
I'd want to see the in car from the Miata as well.
That is a strange place to pass (on the outside of turn six exit), but the Miata was in the middle of the track and there was room, so it's tough to pin that much blame on the Porsche driver. That said, it's at the beginning of a six hour race so there's that to consider.
Pacific Raceways is an unforgiving track.
You know what I see?
I see one of the fastest cars in the field crashing out 6 laps into a 2 day endurance race trying to pass a car that couldn't beat it.
We can armchair general this for days but the old addage is true. in order to finish first, you must first finish.
It's a marathon, not a sprint.
Fun quote from a lucky dawg official on their FB page:
"The incident with Uboot was determined to be both at fault. Uboot should never have tried a pass there, the pavement just *goes away* and then there's no where to go except to expect the passed car to make evasive maneuvers to avoid contact. Also, the ... driver of the Miata should have seen them squirt past. However, there were mitigating circumstances that made it such that they were unaware the car was there. Asshattery all around."
What mitigating circumstances can make it such that the driver is unaware that another car was there? The driver is blind? The helmet visor was down and covered with aluminum foil?
In reply to RacerBoy75 :
I re-watched the video to see if the Miata didn't have anywhere to go, but it looks like the 944 left plenty of room even if it was offline. It appears like the Miata just pitted him once he was past.
Obligatory: I'm not familiar with that track and I wasn't there even if I was.
I originally wasn't going to engage in the 'blame game'... But I also plan to be racing on this track (with this group) in the future, so this could also be used as a good opportunity to learn from more experienced racers.
This is what it looks like to me as the 'driver' of the 924: This happened between 6 and 7, a stretch of track between two lefthanders that has a gentile curve to the right. It looks to me like the Miata exited 6 tight and off-line, and seemed to be inviting the pass regardless of whether that was their intent. The (5cyl Audi powered) 924 took what looked to be an ample (and intentional?) opening. Unexpectedly to the 924 driver, the Miata tried to return to the line after the 924 was mostly past.
Could they really have been caught that off-guard by the road curving? It's not like the pavement 'disappears' there by narrowing, it just curves the way roads do. So it should have been possible for the Miata to hold lateral position, unless this was literally their first time on this track and got mentally lost or were spending too much time worrying about what is behind them and too little about what is in front of them. Perhaps they could have (poorly) chosen to changed their mind to go back to being on-line after first opening up the line for passing, or potentially even (intentionally or not) just run a 'blocking' line through there without watching their mirrors? Short of their mirrors having just fallen completely out of adjustment and the Miata being about to head to the pits to fix them, I'm not sure how they wouldn't have been aware of the 924's presence and inevitable passing to plan for. Another driver also noted a run-in with this particular Miata as having dangerously taken up much more track than necessary when being overtaken by significantly faster cars. Regardless, I'm struggling to come up with any explanation that isn't either a dumb or dick move on their part.
Meanwhile, I feel the 924 had been patient and in the Miata mirrors for multiple turns. They had zero reason to believe the Miata didn't see their presence nor passing. If anything, they had reason to believe the Miata was letting them by. I understand that people make mistakes, but short of only passing on the front 'straight', I'm not sure how much bigger of an opening there needs to be for the 924 to not be engaging in 'asshattery' there... I genuinely want to know, because even trying to be a 'safe racer' I can't say I would have done differently, and I don't want to find myself in that situation.
If you were the 924 driver, what would you have done and why?
If you were the 924 driver, what would you have expected the Miata to do and why?
If you were the Miata driver, what would you have done and why?
If you were the Miata driver, what would you expect the 924 driver to do and why?
As a visual aid, here is a track map with racing line and driving school designated passing zones... Note that this specifically happened in one of them.
1. If you were the 924 driver, what would you have done and why?
2. If you were the 924 driver, what would you have expected the Miata to do and why?
3. If you were the Miata driver, what would you have done and why?
4. If you were the Miata driver, what would you expect the 924 driver to do and why?
Answer 1: if I knew the Miata driver to be a solid racer I would pass.
Answer 2: I don't expect anything from drivers unless I know them or they acknowledge me. Note I know some drivers to be squirrely and act accordingly.
Answer 3: Hold my line because that is what you're supposed to do.
Answer 4: I would expect the 924 to blow past at the first opportunity.
My take on passing and being passed:
If you don't know the driver or know them not to be heads up; use caution.
If they acknowledge you then you are golden
At our level of cars you should be able to four wheel drift the car and point people by at the same time.........but not everyone can do this. Because of that you need to take that into account.
Offside passes (passenger side) are always higher risk because you may not be in the drivers line of sight; if they are looking 200yds down the road they may not even realize you're there, even when you are right next to them. As scary as it may seem some folks are at 100% just getting around the track.
I am an extremely aggressive driver; watch the first 2 minutes or so of this video and also the part from minute 20 (last lap) it's a good example of being cautiously aggressive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFW-mX0HSms&t=1350s
Tom1200 said:At our level of cars you should be able to four wheel drift the car and point people by at the same time.........but not everyone can do this. Because of that you need to take that into account.
Offside passes (passenger side) are always higher risk because you may not be in the drivers line of sight; if they are looking 200yds down the road they may not even realize you're there, even when you are right next to them. As scary as it may seem some folks are at 100% just getting around the track.
It's not just offside, it's also an outside pass that isn't initiated until well after the apex. That's an unusual way to do it and I'm not surprised to see that it went badly. It looks like the Porsche had a huge power advantage and could easily have just hung back a bit, swapped to the inside, and powered past in the "safe" space that the Miata isn't using to track out.
And yes, one of disadvantages to the low-barrier-to-entry racing series like LeMons and Lucky Dog is that there are people out there with very little track experience. There's no race license requirement, no rookie markings on the cars, and you kind of have to assume that everyone is a newbie until proven otherwise.
It looks to me like the Miata was moving towards the right before the 924 started to make the pass. The 924 driver should have known that unless the Miata adjusted, he was going to have very little room - maybe less than one 924-width.
I don't know anything about that track or conditions that day, but from what I see on the video, I don't think it's unreasonable for the 924 to pass here. It is obvious to me that it's a little risky, with the Miata moving to the right.
1 - If I was the 924 driver, I'd probably have made the same pass, but I'd have kept a close eye on the Miata since it's trying to move to the right. I'd have been prepared to put 2 wheels off track, or maybe brake (not both!) if the Miata kept moving to the right. From the video, it looks like that would have worked out fine. If moving off track wasn't an option for whatever reason, I would have backed out of the pass as soon as I saw that I wasn't going to have enough room.
2 - I'd have expected the Miata to do exactly what it did, while hoping that he'd see me and adjust his line to give me room.
3 - It looks like the 924 was going to get around the Miata at some point, so as the Miata driver, I would have left the 924 room to pass - by not tracking out so far to the right. On the other hand, if I wanted the 924 to stay behind me, I've have moved to the right more quickly to defend my position. Either way, I'd have been prepared to make room for the 924 if we were about to hit.
4 - I think I'd have expected the 924 to attempt that pass there.
I agree that both drivers have some guilt here. Either of them could have prevented this. The 924 made a risky move, and ultimately it's his responsiblity to make a safe pass - which he failed to do by not moving to the right or backing out. I don't know what was going on in the Miata and how he didn't see the 924 before the contact. It almost looks like both drivers thought, "I'm going to do what I'm going to do, and everybody else needs to stay out of my way."
I had my first significant contact incident at a LDRL race a few weekends ago after 22 years of experience. I was passing a Miata on the outside, much like this. Another really friggen fast Miata was approaching both of us and decided he would pass us both on the inside. It probably would have all worked if the Miata-in-the-middle had held his line, but he was probably looking at the other approaching car and didn't notice I passed him. I got tagged in the RR quater panel and let him lean into me with all the runoff that I had available so I didn't spin.
Moral of the story is don't push a pass on a beat-to-hell Miata. They're used to being able to take any line at any time and can change direction very quickly. I feel bad for putting my first dent in a race car, but it was a good run.
Glad the driver wasn't seriously injured, but everyone went home hurt from this incident. Contact sucks and is fresh in my memory. A cage is never the place to save money or weight.
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