Really have been thinking about a Jaguar powered dragster ever since my son in law found that rusty one in the attic.
I've looked and it seems even obsolete front engine dragsters are more expensive than I think it would take to build from new.
Am I wrong? I mean a few feet of tubing. A 9" rear end etc. etc. most of which would be stuff I'd have to buy anyway to race an old dragster.
There is cheap FED up the road from me. Shoot me a few $ and I'll grab it and tow it out for you.
Building it is always more $ than you think...
They look simple but there is a surprising amount of tech in a "simple" dragster. The chassis flex is one of the ways they are tuned (really, the only practical way to tune the chassis) and I know in some cases the top tube actually is a slip fit to allow the chassis to flex more.
I think the time to buy a chassis was about 10-20 years ago when a lot of people were getting out of it. I know my old shop's Top Alcohol dragster was sold off to someone who put a lower class engine in it for bracket racing. Who knows if that came to pass or not.
What sort of money are we talking about?
Quite a few chassis on RacingJunk classifieds, looks like you can get yourself into a good amount of trouble for under $20k.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I'm cheap. I'm also not expecting any sort of record. Nor do I expect to have much over 5-600 hp. Through a Turbo 400 transmission.
So short and sweet it is. It can be as stiff as a board. It's still going to be lighter faster and a whole lot easier than putting it in car. Plus when finished I'll move it on.
You did ask for how much. Since you have proved you used to be very successful at building cheap, I'm sure you can do ok. But doing ok, means that $20K would not even compete against a really fast streetable car!
Nothing comes a cheap as in the days you were good AND cheap.
If you put a rail together for as cheap as you are thinking, it would not only be relatively slow, but also a rolling death trap! The guys I know that are fast in the 1/4 mile, have been studying what works and what doesn't since they were kids. Or have REALLY deep pockets!
The V12 would be flat out cool, though!
frenchyd said:In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I'm cheap. I'm also not expecting any sort of record. Nor do I expect to have much over 5-600 hp. Through a Turbo 400 transmission.
So short and sweet it is. It can be as stiff as a board. It's still going to be lighter faster and a whole lot easier than putting it in car. Plus when finished I'll move it on.
If it's stiff, unless you mount the engine transverse (I knew of one V8 drag bike done that way) the torque is either gonna brake something, or flip it, on launch. That's why they "tune" the amount of flex.
I'm OK with slow. I'll have less than $1000 in the engine and transmission. That will include the zoomie headers. 5-600 hp is what I'll be shooting for.
It will be a stock ( unopened ) bottom end. And the valve covers will come off only to replace stock cams with reground ones. ( I might get as much as .430 lift at the valve)
I'll run some 8-9 second bracket class where few others enter. If on the off chance I go faster, it probably won't count because I won't be certified for that speed. in fact most of my time with be at test and tune.
$20,000? Nope! I'm hoping to build/ buy a chassis for 1/10th of that.
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:There is cheap FED up the road from me. Shoot me a few $ and I'll grab it and tow it out for you.
Building it is always more $ than you think...
What sort of money are we talking about? I do know what project creep is and how easy it is to buy newer faster prettier stuff and even my XJS Group 44 tribute car has fallen guilty of that.
In reply to frenchyd :
A cage for that speed might eat most of your budget, given materials costs, and which ruling body runs the track you're at.
03Panther said:frenchyd said:In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I'm cheap. I'm also not expecting any sort of record. Nor do I expect to have much over 5-600 hp. Through a Turbo 400 transmission.
So short and sweet it is. It can be as stiff as a board. It's still going to be lighter faster and a whole lot easier than putting it in car. Plus when finished I'll move it on.If it's stiff, unless you mount the engine transverse (I knew of one V8 drag bike done that way) the torque is either gonna brake something, or flip it, on launch. That's why they "tune" the amount of flex.
Not 5000+ horsepower, maybe closer to 500. So if it's going to flip, it'll have to pick up that long heavy engine and if it threatens to do that I'll put smaller less sticky tires on. ( Chevy bolt pattern) Should be a set or two I can borrow.
I might use one of my rear ends and simply weld up the spider gears. I did that on the Black Jack spl and in 40 years it never failed.
In fact using an IRS makes a lot of sense. Just remove the axles and suspension so it's easily bolted onto the chassis. Wouldn't have to buy a 9" Ford.
Or worry about straightening it after welding it and buying short axles. See I just saved another grand.
In reply to frenchyd :
I don't think NHRA tracks allow welded diffs at any speed.... which is one of the few nice things about the 9" as spools for them are extremely cheap.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:In reply to frenchyd :
A cage for that speed might eat most of your budget, given materials costs.
Pete you did see the cage we built for the XJS didn't you? As long as NHRA has a choice of Chrome Moly or DOM it shouldn't be too hard, or expensive. OK DOM is going to be bigger and heavier. So what? Whatever the local record for 12 cylinder cars is I'll beat it, so I win!!!
Pete. (l33t FS) said:In reply to frenchyd :
I don't think NHRA tracks allow welded diffs at any speed.... which is one of the few nice things about the 9" as spools for them are extremely cheap.
Turns out you're right. Anything faster than 10 seconds needs aftermarket axles. They also need a parachute if over 150 mph.
But hey! I watched the Nelsons videos on U tube. The Nelson's are going 8 seconds with stock axles. Hmmmm perhaps it's one of those rules that aren't checked? Or maybe there is exclusions or exceptions if you know where to look?
A friend restored his original vintage dragster that he ran in the 70s........he lost track of it for 30 years after he sold it in the early 80s....
But after he restored it he needed to get it inspected and it was found that the lower tubes were too thin.....
Why : Because water had gotten into the tubes and rusted out the tubes but not all the way thru so it was not visible.....
So watch out for old tube frame dragsters and probably anything else tube frame that sat outside , or not known......
In reply to frenchyd :
I saw your target, and I can read, so I never said anything about 5000+.
As to the rest, I'll let you reminisce about what was successful then (and you did Awesome stuff at the time), and make up all the bench racing figures ya like.
If you ever build a cheap one, I predict it will not be a safe one. But finding suicidal drivers ain't hard.
You'll have to find a sponsor with deep pockets, or hurt some drivers. You (nor I) have enough years left to start learning how to drag race on the cheap.
Or you can build a death trap. Your choice.
If we're just bench racing, put you a 3/4 cam in it, weld it into a 200 lb. go cart frame, and it'll break into the 8's. no sweat!
In reply to californiamilleghia :
What started me down this rabbit hole is my son- in -law found a dragster chassis that when we got it down broke in half because of the rust you mentioned.
That plus a lot of those older chassis no longer conform to the rules regarding tube sizes or thickness. So basically you're starting from scratch anyway.
03Panther said:In reply to frenchyd :
I saw your target, and I can read, so I never said anything about 5000+.
As to the rest, I'll let you reminisce about what was successful then (and you did AWD stuff at the time), and make up all the bench racing figures ya like.
If you ever build a cheap one, I predict it will not be a safe one. But finding suicidal drivers ain't hard.You'll find a sponsor with deep pockets, of hurt some drivers. You (nor I) have enough years left to start learning how to drag race on the cheap. Or build a death trap. Your choice.
If we're just bench racing, put you a 3/4 cam in it, weld it into a 200 lb. go cart frame, and it'll break into the 8's. no sweat!
Cars I've built from scratch. A pile of tubing so far in my life is 6 all but one are still around racing. That one is in the Packard museum.
Plus several production cars.
True race winners with powerful engines, light weight, and high speed.
A dragster is different with different requirements. I trust the NHRA. Has spelt those out just like any racing body does.
So, I guess you started this, just for the opportunity to brag about your former glory?
You did ask for opinions. I'm sorry you do not like the ones you got.
Blackjack was an awesome acheavment. Has absolutely nothing to do with 1/4 mile drag racing.
If you think you can build a safe one cheap, then, by all means ignore the advise you ask for. But no need to remind people, over and over and over, or start threads to remind people again.
In reply to 03Panther :
I'm sorry you're so negative about this. I am looking for more. Not just I can't do it!
I was hoping to have some actual numbers to work with. Like the rear end will cost $ X -Y the front axle costs $ X. A parachute is About this much but you can buy those items used for••••••
I fail to see why an old chassis should cost $20,000 when in all likely hood it no longer meets current NHRA requirements. At least the ones I've seen.
It's just tubes. I won't need a 300" chassis or even a 200" chassis. I understand that controlling flex helps traction and prevents wheel stands. But the other way is to give up some traction with smaller tires. I'm not going to go 6's or even 7's so what's so expensive?
The Nelson's can get an old Ford Chassis in the 8's and if you watch their U tube video's there isn't anything they do that's high tech or exotic.
Take 1000 pounds off that old Ford, remove a lot of aero drag. And why won't 600 hp go 8's? I'm sure there is a lot of knowledge to be gained but that's a major reason to do this. I think it's fun to meet a new challenge. It's worth a few thousand to try. Plus it has the side benefit of allowing me to figure out how to tune using a lap top.
When I first started working with Hilborn Injection, it was a steep learning curve. My only prior experience was what I saw my neighbors do with their Offenhauser. Yet I had it running on the engine dyno and quickly sorted out to start on the key and pull cleanly to 8300 rpm.
So yes I can learn. Why do you believe I can't?
Pete. (l33t FS) said:They look simple but there is a surprising amount of tech in a "simple" dragster. The chassis flex is one of the ways they are tuned (really, the only practical way to tune the chassis) and I know in some cases the top tube actually is a slip fit to allow the chassis to flex more.
I think the time to buy a chassis was about 10-20 years ago when a lot of people were getting out of it. I know my old shop's Top Alcohol dragster was sold off to someone who put a lower class engine in it for bracket racing. Who knows if that came to pass or not.
Pete, that was my initial thought. Buy some older chassis that doesn't have the latest stuff, ( or length etc) very much on the cheap. Then checked with racing Junk and found out how shockingly expensive that old chassis was selling for.
Since they are simply tubes and NHRA has rules about tube sizes. We are talking about less than $1,000 worth of tubes. If DOM is legal probably less than $500. A rear end, a front axle, and a parachute!! Being cheap I'll look for used at less than 50% of new. If it will hold up to some maxed out Hemi or big Block, why won't it last a few passes with a V12?
frenchyd said:Nope! I'm hoping to build/ buy a chassis for 1/10th of that.
I don't think you can buy the tube and welding wire for that.
Might want to check on DOM prices. Last time I bought 1.75" x .120" wall (September of last year) it was around $8.00 per foot and that was through a commercial account.
This is the bare chassis for my rock crawler, it's a small 2-seater. There is over 200 feet of 1.75" DOM in this chassis. A dragster chassis is going to take more tube than you realize.
Hey Frenchyd, Just for sugar and giggles, check out this site. May give you inspiration, or shudders.
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