Can we talk about drag racing please?

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

Regarding nitrous...

The best setup, especially for a beginner, won't include a "button you hold". It will have a trigger circuit that activates a solenoid to spray at a predetermined moment (like wide-open throttle). 
 

I usually just wire mine into the TPS. 

Carbs?   Remember you're talking to a card carrying Luddite of the first order.  Hmmmm I wonder if I can fit a steam powered linkage?   

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

Hang on, guys!

He's asking about drag racing at the Challenge- NOT elimination head to head drag racing.

Cutting the light is meaningless at the Challenge. Only elapsed time matters in the end. Even the seasoned drag racers like the Nelsons sit there and wait for the light then launch. Why risk red lighting??  That's a waste of energy (and potential broken parts) for a run that doesn't count. 

Thanks.  great point. 

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to frenchyd :

The raw math on an 1800 lb car with 400 hp says it could be a 10 second car. That's plenty!  Don't worry about nitrous, etc. 
 

However, your car won't run 10's. You don't have enough experience.  It's more likely it will run 16's the first time,  and you can get it down into the 13's or 14's after a little bit of practice. (Perhaps in the first day). A 3 second improvement is evidence of a really inexperienced and inconsistent driver. A good driver with a well sorted car will probably be searching for tenth of a second improvements. 
 

The 10 second mark is simply a mathematical formula. It is the optimum. You won't get there until you spend a lot of time tweaking both the car and the driver. 
 

No, the Challenge does not have pro drivers for the drags. Anyone can drive. If you are considering a remote "self" version of the Challenge, you can ask anyone you know or meet at the track to drive. I recommend letting a better driver take it for a few runs after you try it- it will give you a few goals to shoot for, and the more experienced driver can help give you suggestions on how to launch and improve YOUR car. 

Great!  The 10 second mark is something I needed to know for safety reasons. 
I agree with your statement I have a massive amount to learn.   In road racing the next year I was as much as 10 seconds a lap faster than the first year!  ( in a slow car ). 
Regarding my own event, would it be cheating if I put a skilled experienced driver in the seat?  Is it about the driver or the car?  

In reply to frenchyd :

Both. 
 

Nope. Not cheating. 

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

But even the car aspects have a learning curve. 
 

You know how to make a car go fast on a curvy track. That's completely different than making it go fast in a straight line. 

An online version of the event would be difficult in several ways. 
 

The Concors would be the easiest. 
 

The drag racing portion is second hardest. Replicating the track conditions, weather, altitude, humidity, etc is hard (but not insurmountable)

Replicating the autocross portion might be the hardest, but even that is not impossible. 

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Nitrous isn't a fuel. 
 

Nitrous cools the charge so more molecules of air/fuel mix can be stuffed in the cylinder for detonation.  It should work on every engine.

Not meaning to derail this thread, but that's not quite true. Nitrous oxide is N2 plus O. During combustion event, the bonds are broken between the O and the N2, and now there's a bunch of free O available to combust more fuel. That's why we have a nitrous solenoid and a fuel solenoid but not an oxygen solenoid.

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

I stand corrected. Thanks!

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

But it's still not a fuel. 

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:

At least a th400 has a shot at having a few speeds instead of a 4lneutrals 

I don't think 400 will be that bad with an irs even one that isn't set up well should 60' better than we can fwd. But definitely not something you figure out in a pass or two, I am at a few decades and still learning every time.

What I know is in vintage racing we are limited ( in my class ) to 5.3 inches of a treaded Dunlop  tires. Yet With rolling starts traction was never a problem.  Now by the time vintage racing got real popular ( 1990's) I was building 430 cu in small blocks big aluminum heads  roller cams and Hilborn fuel injection. I spent about $20,000 on parts. But I was small potato's.  Augie Pabst  owned one of  the Scarabs and bought engines from NASCAR. Builders conservatively he was making 750 hp. To the DeMar's 503 yet we both were on the skinny tires. Once rolling traction wasn't an issue. Oh, sure braking and cornering was limited and definitely wider tires would have been faster. 
     

My point is I'll stage as deep as possible- try to keep the tires from spinning and once hooked up nail it. That's when the nitrous comes in. 

Drag racing is much like any other kind of racing. 

Biggest factor = driver

Second biggest factor = tires

Third biggest factor = what everyone else obsesses about

In reply to frenchyd :

Everyone stages as deep as possible.  The stage lights are only a few inches apart- that's all you get.  

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

An online version of the event would be difficult in several ways. 
 

The Concors would be the easiest. 
 

The drag racing portion is second hardest. Replicating the track conditions, weather, altitude, humidity, etc is hard (but not insurmountable)

Replicating the autocross portion might be the hardest, but even that is not impossible. 

That is an absolutely brilliant suggestion. Maybe we could have a correction standard?  A stock driver quality car could run various events across the country and his time is the baseline for everybody. 
let's say he turns a 14.5 second quarter mile in Florida  goes to California and turns a 14.7  comes north to the frozen wasteland and because we're at a higher elevation turns a 15.0. 
California gets a .2 correctionand Minnesota get's a .5  ? 

same for the Autocross?  What times the standard turns are used to correct for different tracks?  

In reply to frenchyd :

Yep. There are ways.

In reply to frenchyd :

Sending the same driver and car to the different locations may provide a "control" for comparison and an opportunity for the person to fill the roll of driver/photographer/journalist to do photos and in person reporting. 

In reply to No Time :

I was thinking that perhaps someone from the magazine would like a road trip?   

In reply to frenchyd :

I don't think GRM would  do that.  That would be hard for them to staff.  

But there are other ways to correct some of the differences.

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

Really?  One car, one guy, go around promote the magazine. Take some pictures, Contact subscribers at various parts of the country?  I mean it's what 5000 miles round trip from Seattle but only about 7-800 from California same to the Midwest, someplace in the Northeast? Etc.  
car doesn't have to be thrashed just driven consistently. 

The key is running on your toes, if you try to let your heels hit the ground in 6 inch stilettos things will end badly.

I love the idea of regional challenges. I was afraid that was the way that 2020 was going to go. I think that there is definitely an opportunity for our host in the idea of regional challenges, from an event sponsorship perspective and magazine exposure and branding aspect. I think if materials are supplied to be displayed at an autocross event and at a drag strip over the same weekend or even within a month of each other within the same region, if at least 20 entries per region can be filled, I suspect that a tow fund or lodging in Gainesville could be awarded from a sponsor. Tow fund being easiest as that regional event sponsor could be original convenience store chain who's providing a gift card that can be used on fuel at their locations. 

The conditions don't need to be the same across every region as long as they're the same for competitors with any region, as the idea is this the regional competition is a feeder and a baseline, not a replacement for the challenge. So if everybody's running under the same conditions on a Friday night at the drag strip, and if everybody's running within the same run group at a local autocross, That's as consistent and as comparable as you're going to get, so it works and fits the formula. 

The issue or hurdle falls on the racers and teams competing. As it is on them to capture on film and in photos The competition, The stories of the build, The history of the team and the cars and to convey that in a method that the staff of GRM can put it into print that has value. Hopefully the aspect of the online concourse judging, which GRM has become quite well versed at in working with concourse d'lemons this year, lends itself to participant cooperation with that regard. 

In reply to frenchyd :

GRM only has a staff of 13, and 5 of them are named "Suddard".

They have a lot of other stuff to do and events during the course of a year. 
 

It would be great, but I respect it may not be possible. It could be done with local volunteers instead of staff members. 

For most cars at the Challenge, drag racing is as simple as stomp the go pedal. The overwhelming majority of Challenge cars are 14's or slower, where there is simply not much room for improvement. The quicker your car, the more skilled needed to achieve its theoretical max performance, mostly due to traction, launching, etc. SVreX touched on these theoretical performance limits, which are easy to calculate. One of my Challenge cars ran a 15.4 +- 0.1 no matter who drove it or how they launched it. 

Nitrous can be as simple or as difficult as you want it to be. With a carbed engine, you are looking for a "plate" system, which is simply a spacer between carb and intake manifold with built-in ports for fuel and nitrous. "Dry" system is nitrous only via 1 solenoid. Okay for small hp shots, cheaper, but danger of running lean, especially with a carb. Most EFI systems can compensate for the lean conditions via the injectors, but only up to a limit. "Wet" system is nitrous on one solenoid, fuel on another, both lines fed into a mixing nozzle, then plumbed into an intake. Wet systems are the way to go. Higher power potential and no need to change the tune (or carb jets) for reasonable power levels. I like a simple button to turn on both solenoids. A 100hp wet shot got my Challenge car from low 14's to 12.9. Iit friggin' works, and it's fun as hell 

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

I completely understand limitations and doing things efficiently.    We can't ask the magazine to do what we're not able to do ourselves. 
Having spent most of my working life on the road putting 60-80,000 miles a year on the car. I realize how hard the work is. So if it can't happen then it can't. 
 

But maybe a regional event could be a start?  

In reply to frenchyd :

They tried one once. It didn't go well. 

In reply to frenchyd :

The key with any form of motorsport competition, including the idea of a regional challenge, is that it has to create value for the host, in this case GRM. In addition to the organization of establishing subclasses during a test in two night and local autocross, reaching out to potential sponsors of a regional event and coordinating them getting in contact with GRM regarding content exposure whether it be through the magazine or website is where that value would be created. Bringing solid lines on sponsors and potential subscribers via exposure within local autocross groups (we're already likely very aware of GRM) and within the local drag racing community (who may be aware of GRM but it's somewhat less likely, in the content within GRM maybe hit or miss for them) is where the value is brought.  if you get a local convenience store chain willing to commit $3,000 to the event, 2500 of which goes to GRM for providing exposure of the event exposure to them for partnering as a sponsor of the event and 500 towards a gift card for the original winner. That creates enough value for GRM to want to sift through the content submitted by the competitors to create consumable content. It also makes it worthwhile for GRM to then send out banners, car number plates, decals and to develop a t-shirt design for the regional event, with the t-shirt production cost to be shouldered by an additional entry fee. If GRM wants to chip in to provide the winner of the regional event a discount on entry into the challenge at Gainesville, in addition to the sponsor providing a $500 gift card that's good towards fuel, That would be awesome. But I certainly wouldn't expect hope or require it. One of the goals of regional events should be to get the winners to the challenge, and you hope that there are two or three other entries at the regional level that felt that they were competitive enough against the regional winner, that they want another shot at them at the challenge. If two of those three or four drivers and teams have never previously attended the challenge, and you have four regional events across the country, then in theory you may end up with eight additional competitors at the challenge who previously hadn't run. It may take 2 to 3 years of a regional format to build up that increase of field count at the challenge, but that in addition to content, marketing and branding partnerships and content is where the value would be. That's what needs to be cultivated to make it feasible and worthwhile for our host. 

I'm not saying it can't be done, as it certainly can be. But I am saying a good 200 to 250 hours of work on the organizational side needs to be done before consideration regarding registration being opened would be made. 

SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

An online version of the event would be difficult in several ways. 
 

The Concors would be the easiest. 
 

The drag racing portion is second hardest. Replicating the track conditions, weather, altitude, humidity, etc is hard (but not insurmountable)

Replicating the autocross portion might be the hardest, but even that is not impossible. 

I have the answer..... I become a Jr Jr assistant to the editor for the magazine and go to all these "events" with the same vehicle and set the lap time for that event. Times are adjusted to the percent difference from the "standard". Done. Now.... I'll fill out my W-4 for the magazine in a minute.