From an environmental impact, I tend to agree with Toyota that the sweet spot right now is Hybrids. PHEVs have most of the EV benefits, with very few of the inconveniences and supply chain constraints.
From an environmental impact, I tend to agree with Toyota that the sweet spot right now is Hybrids. PHEVs have most of the EV benefits, with very few of the inconveniences and supply chain constraints.
Duke said:Keith Tanner said:
I am making the assumption that a plug-in hybrid (of the sort I'm describing) will have a non-trivial EV range, enough to allow it to perform normal daily use. That's why I was using "mild" to describe a vehicle that really can't go very far at all on battery.
If I could have a plug-in hybrid with 40 miles of BEV range during winter, that would be adequate for 90% + of my driving needs. Frankly, I could probably get by with 30 miles.
After poo-pooing hybrids for years, I'm somewhat on board now. If something were to happen to my current DD minivan, a used Pacifica hybrid would be high on the shopping list. I could do much of my weekly chores in EV-mode most days.
ProDarwin said:As much as I love EVs, id still exercise extreme caution when road tripping. I dont road trip often, so I dont give a E36 M3 (but I also live in an apt. now so charging is a non-starter). However, my ex* got a Polestar as a rental for a business trip to Charleston SC from Winston Salem NC, and that was a total nightmare for her. Difficult to locate chargers, broken chargers, chargers that were extremely slow, all the fun. I think she had to delay getting back an extra day because it just wasn't possible.
*this is a person who is very intelligent, but not a car or EV enthusiast in any way.
Yep, I read this article and went, "I think I'll wait." Granted, deciding to take an EV 600 miles during a family emergency when you have access to a whole fleet of ICE loaners was an absolutely boneheaded maneuver anyways.
ProDarwin said:As much as I love EVs, id still exercise extreme caution when road tripping. I dont road trip often, so I dont give a E36 M3 (but I also live in an apt. now so charging is a non-starter). However, my ex* got a Polestar as a rental for a business trip to Charleston SC from Winston Salem NC, and that was a total nightmare for her. Difficult to locate chargers, broken chargers, chargers that were extremely slow, all the fun. I think she had to delay getting back an extra day because it just wasn't possible.
*this is a person who is very intelligent, but not a car or EV enthusiast in any way.
Winston-Salem to Charleston is just under 300 miles, In the average modern EV that's a one stopper and there are tons of chargers available on the route, whether you go down to Charlotte and over or over to I-95 and down. One stop for 30 minutes to get back to 80% would add maybe a half hour to the trip vs a gasser.
Duckzero said:EVs are only slowing down because I believe the venn diagram of homeowners (people with personal, overnight charging) and EV owners are quickly beginning to become the same circle. It's going to continue to move up, but just at a pace that matches what homeowners can afford year over year.
And they are running out of people who
1) Are doing it for political/environmental reasons
2) Can afford a new car
3) Aren't getting excluded by tax credits by the income and car cost limits. Its almost like they are trying to exclude people who can responibly afford a typical EV new.
You're left with people who just want a car that works. TBH I wouldn't buy one. I might lease one if I were in the market for a new ev, but the tech is just moving too quick. It is too likely that any new car today will look ancient in 5 years. I'll ride out my ICE until thing stabilize a bit more.
alfadriver said:Again.... remember the EV mandate includes all versions of hybrids. So adding a 48V starter/generator qualifies for an EV. Those will probably be the gross majority of the EV mandate, IMHO.
As for H2, people think it's new research, but it's just been going on for a long time. Fuel cell or ICE- they have been worked on for a long, long time.
No solution is perfect- H2 has green generation issues as well as real storage and movement challenges. But some think they are easier to solve than the BEV issues, apparently.
"ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS ELECTROLISYS ON WATER"
...and it makes more sense to just power EVs directly, since it takes a whopping snotload of energy to separate that H2 from the O
02Pilot said:I cannot be the only person who hears "hydrogen vehicle" and immediately thinks:
Yes, apples and oranges, I know, but still not the sort of natural association that tends to prove beneficial for marketing efforts.
Oddly enough it was not really the hydrogen that was burning, it was the highly flammable doping they used on the skin.
Duke said:02Pilot said:I cannot be the only person who hears "hydrogen vehicle" and immediately thinks:
[Zeppelin I album cover]
I live near where the Delaware River turns into the Delaware Bay.
I see where the oil tankers are docked right up against the refinery. I also see where the CNG tankers are docked waaaay out at the end of a long skinny 1/4-mile pier to keep the blammo away from shore.
I realize CNG != H2. But I really don't want to think what an H2 refueling station would be like, especially in an emergency. Or a discount, independently-operated H2 station running 20-year-old pumps.
I think hydrogen fuel is dumb, but hydrogen is a LOT lighter than air. If it escapes, it is going up. Fast. It isn't like hydrocarbon vapors that settle near ground level.
In reply to Chris_V :
Your argument would be valid if a "300 mile" range ev actually has 300 miles of range.
i have a Tesla and at least in Tesla world 300 miles of total range equates to about 24o miles of highway range at those speeds. Also, getting below 10% is "bad for the battery" and so is charging over 80 percent. So in real world terms that 300 mile range = 300-60-60-60= 180 miles of usable range at highway speeds within normal charging percentage limits.
yes, you could charge to 100 percent by avoiding the warnings, and get it below 20 percent and drive less than 60 miles per hour on the interstate and pay one dollar per minute excess usage fees by charging over 90 percent on a supercharger and get the advertised ange but that's just not practical for most people.
your rose colored glasses are too tight I think.
The above is a factor, but I'm not sure it was the biggest one in this case. From what I gather it was just a combo of a bunch of things going on. As I mentioned, closed chargers, broken chargers, incompatibility concerns, etc. IIRC she texted me at some point saying she was low enough on charge that she had to wait like 4 hours at one painfully slow L1 charger just to get enough charge to get to the next one (which was supposed to be quick) only to get there and find that one was not operational.
Can you do that trip in an EV? Sure. Is it friendly to non-enthusiasts who have driven ICEs their whole life? Seems questionable.
Getting better every day no doubt, but I still think the sweet spot for single-car households that do periodically road trip is Hybrid or PHEV.
I like EVs. They have a great use envelope (city use with access to 240+V charging). I also like diesel, gas, hybrid, etc. vehicles. I am in favor of ALL the options, and picking the one that works best for your personal situation.
I don't like politicians legislating the correct solution (EV mandates) over the concerns of the engineers that have to develop them. Track days, towing, long distance highway driving for work (aka mandated pace/limited downtime to charge) are all pretty common vehicle usages, and things that EVs aren't great at. I think we could look to the commercial industries (railroad, over the road trucking, container ships, airlines) that are always optimizing payload/range/efficiency. If you're not weight-limited (aircraft) an ICE generator running at single speed/peak BSFC and an electric motor for ramping speeds and loads up and down seems like the most efficient answer.
Whatever happened to metal hydride hydrogen fuel cell storage I heard so much about 10-15 years ago?
In reply to theruleslawyer :
Exactly. Those are great additions to my point.
Also, we are in the very early stages of EV development. Not surprisingly, we are moving towards more complex systems, which limit right to repair. I was hoping we would go towards scaled up RCs with standards that allow anyone to learn how to fix and repair their vehicles, but that doesn't make money like proprietary systems.
Again, EVs work, but we are definitely in the 80s-era computing stage right now. Not accessible, expensive, and fairly proprietary because everyone was trying to make *their* thing the standard. The EU will ultimately be the place where we will see truly affordable and exciting EVs because standards would be enforced to enable EV adoption at scale, for all kinds of consumers.
Duckzero said:The EU will ultimately be the place where we will see truly affordable and exciting EVs because standards would be enforced to enable EV adoption at scale, for all kinds of consumers.
If that plays out, a big reason will be that smaller cars are more viable in the EU, and they'll have smaller, cheaper batteries within them.
US preferences and range expectations mean everything has to have a 80-200kwh battery, which is rightfully expensive. Chevy has proven that you can have a small EV for well below average new car prices. But they're slow sellers because of the form factor.
I've said it before: My grandmother was born using a horse and buggy and died with a '74 Chevelle station wagon. It's not happening over night, whatever "it" ends up being.
In reply to NermalSnert (Forum Supporter) :
That doesn't sell angerclicks
nakmuayfarang said:In reply to Chris_V :
Your argument would be valid if a "300 mile" range ev actually has 300 miles of range.
i have a Tesla and at least in Tesla world 300 miles of total range equates to about 24o miles of highway range at those speeds. Also, getting below 10% is "bad for the battery" and so is charging over 80 percent. So in real world terms that 300 mile range = 300-60-60-60= 180 miles of usable range at highway speeds within normal charging percentage limits.
yes, you could charge to 100 percent by avoiding the warnings, and get it below 20 percent and drive less than 60 miles per hour on the interstate and pay one dollar per minute excess usage fees by charging over 90 percent on a supercharger and get the advertised ange but that's just not practical for most people.
your rose colored glasses are too tight I think.
Dude, that 300 miles between locations means you only need to go 150 miles then charge to 80% to get to your destination. It's not rose colored glasses. It's experience in living with EVs since 2013. There's no danger to charging to 100% before leaving on a road trip. In fact that's the recommended way to do it. Hell, you CAN charge to 100% on a typical level 2 charger every goddamn day without harming the batteries on modern thermally controlled, liquid cooled/heated battery management systems. I know of a lot of owners that do just that, as they drive a lot. Here's a 2017 Bolt of a friend of mine that charged to 100% all the time:
Still has full range after 285k miles of charging to 100%
Here's my Bolt and it's typical range from spring through summer (note the miles/kWh as the important factor):
And I drive it like I stole it. If I were careful, 5-6 miles/kWh is easy to achieve as many owners show:
I've since upgraded to the Bolt EUV and even in the winter, on road trips at 65 mph, I'm getting over 4 miles/kWh.
Here it was when I got home from CT last December (it was 23 degrees F when I left Preston):
One stop in NJ for 30 minutes was enough to get home easily.
Get out of your Tesla ecosystem. Tesla is known to overrate their range. Other manufacturers don't. As I said, I'm heading out to the Daytona 500 next week. 5 20 minute stops (maybe longer if I need to rest and stretch). 140 miles each leg. Ends up about an hour and a half longer of a trip than when I went down there in my gas car if I drove straight through (but I didn't as I needed some rest in the middle of that 16 hour trip). In reality, the time spent in the EV will be about the same as the gas car was, and I'll be rested when I get there.
ProDarwin said:The above is a factor, but I'm not sure it was the biggest one in this case. From what I gather it was just a combo of a bunch of things going on. As I mentioned, closed chargers, broken chargers, incompatibility concerns, etc. IIRC she texted me at some point saying she was low enough on charge that she had to wait like 4 hours at one painfully slow L1 charger just to get enough charge to get to the next one (which was supposed to be quick) only to get there and find that one was not operational.
Can you do that trip in an EV? Sure. Is it friendly to non-enthusiasts who have driven ICEs their whole life? Seems questionable.
Getting better every day no doubt, but I still think the sweet spot for single-car households that do periodically road trip is Hybrid or PHEV.
I'm assuming she took off in the EV and simple started looking around for chargers. As that map showed, there are dozens of multi-charger stations on the trip she took. (I didn't even have it show the Level 2 chargers, just fast chargers). The problem was not the EV or even the one or two stations she randomly found. Did she just take off for Charleston with no plan? No maps to get to her destination? No GPS? Apps like PlugShare have all the chargers, reviews on each station, which ones are working or in use, etc and can map directions to any of them from anywhere, including outputting the directions to Google maps. The thing I've found is so many "smart" people make things way more difficult than they have to be. Hell, you don't even have to have the app on your phone as it's simply a website that you can visit if you're only going to use it once. www.plugshare.com
People, it's just. not. that. hard. I mean, you figured out personal computers and smart phones. It's much easier to adjust yourself to successfully use an EV.
I'm hoping someone more knowledgeable than I am reads this and responds (and isn't angry that this might get slightly off topic), but to my knowledge there are a handful of operational carbon capture plants across the world. Would it not be feasible to continue building these plants, as well as initiating some reforestation projects, in order to to try and net zero the carbon output of ICE engines? Seems easier than waiting and hoping for solid state battery usage to become viable, since in the meantime we're mining for lithium to make EV batteries, which is probably no less destructive to the planet than drilling for oil. Also, it seems like public attention is focused mostly on the personal automobile as the carbon producing enemy, but do all the cars in the country produce even a third of the emissions of the large container ships that use dirty fuel while traveling international waters? I'm probably preaching to the choir here, but if you want to be earth-friendly on an individual basis, I suspect the answer is to keep an old car in good running condition rather than buying something new, and try to source a lot of your consumer goods locally.
Chris_V said:ProDarwin said:The above is a factor, but I'm not sure it was the biggest one in this case. From what I gather it was just a combo of a bunch of things going on. As I mentioned, closed chargers, broken chargers, incompatibility concerns, etc. IIRC she texted me at some point saying she was low enough on charge that she had to wait like 4 hours at one painfully slow L1 charger just to get enough charge to get to the next one (which was supposed to be quick) only to get there and find that one was not operational.
Can you do that trip in an EV? Sure. Is it friendly to non-enthusiasts who have driven ICEs their whole life? Seems questionable.
Getting better every day no doubt, but I still think the sweet spot for single-car households that do periodically road trip is Hybrid or PHEV.
I'm assuming she took off in the EV and simple started looking around for chargers. As that map showed, there are dozens of multi-charger stations on the trip she took. (I didn't even have it show the Level 2 chargers, just fast chargers). The problem was not the EV or even the one or two stations she randomly found. Did she just take off for Charleston with no plan? No maps to get to her destination? No GPS? Apps like PlugShare have all the chargers, reviews on each station, which ones are working or in use, etc and can map directions to any of them from anywhere, including outputting the directions to Google maps. The thing I've found is so many "smart" people make things way more difficult than they have to be. Hell, you don't even have to have the app on your phone as it's simply a website that you can visit if you're only going to use it once. www.plugshare.com
People, it's just. not. that. hard. I mean, you figured out personal computers and smart phones. It's much easier to adjust yourself to successfully use an EV.
Its likely she took off with no plan whatsoever. However, that is completely expected as that's what literally anyone with a traditional ICE would do.* She probably started looking for chargers (using app/phone) when it was too late and thus didn't have a lot of options on the table. But at that point its easy to be "trapped".
*That's exactly what I mean by unfriendly to non-enthusiasts. You are replacing a refueling system that requires almost zero planning with one that requires mapping your trip, potentially multiple apps, knowledge of plug types, charging standards/speeds, etc. Its something the EV industry/system is going to have to work to correct, or something people will need to become accustomed to. Many people do not have the patience for this and thus will consider road trips a non-starter for EVs.
Its obvious that Tesla recognized this and thats why they've gone though the effort of integrating most of these things directly into the car's nav system. Tesla UX in many places leaves a lot to be desired, but in this area... wise move.
In reply to ProDarwin :
I would not call driving an ICE requiring zero planning. Even in Ohio there are lots of places where, if you're just driving through, places to refuel are not easy to find.
My Garmin GPS has a hot-button for "find nearest gas station", incidentally...
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
I would. There absolutely is a huge percentage of drivers who get behind the wheel with zero planning whatsoever.
Does your GPS also show nearest charging station?
Pete. (l33t FS) said:02Pilot said:I cannot be the only person who hears "hydrogen vehicle" and immediately thinks:
[Zeppelin I cover]
Yes, apples and oranges, I know, but still not the sort of natural association that tends to prove beneficial for marketing efforts.
Oddly enough it was not really the hydrogen that was burning, it was the highly flammable doping they used on the skin.
Actually, it's both. Static sparks igniting the dope is what started the fire; thousands of cubic feet of hydrogen is what made the explosion.
In reply to Duke :
So, the dope burned, but the hydrogen exploded, right?
In reply to SV reX :
Yes. The dope, even as a dry film, was remarkably flammable. But once the first hydrogen cell caught, it was game over.
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