roninsoldier83
roninsoldier83 GRM+ Memberand Reader
3/15/17 6:06 p.m.

Today I took a test drive in a car that I've been meaning to take for a spin for a while: the new Fiat 124 Spider Abarth 6MT, aka the “Fiata”. I drove it back to back with my AP2 2007 Honda S2000, taking them both down Deer Creek Canyon for a friendly comparison.

Disclaimers: I'm in the Denver, CO area, so high elevation (~5200 ft). Also, during the Fiat test drive, I had a salesman in the car; whereas I drove the S2000 alone, so the S2000 had a slight power to weight ratio advantage.

In this review, I'm not going to cover aesthetics. You know what these cars look like and it's all subjective anyway.

Getting inside both cars, it becomes obvious that the S2000 is a larger car. I say that because it felt like the S2000 had slightly more room in just about every direction. My 6'2” 210 lbs frame fits snugly into the S2000, whereas I felt like the Fiata lost about ~1/2” or more in just about every direction. I still fit just fine, but the Honda better suits my frame; even if they're both fairly small cars.

For the record, the Fiata has more adjustability- tilt steering, tilting seat bottom, etc; but for someone my size, I already know the drill for small cars: put the seat as low as it will go, tilt the seat back to an acceptable angle and slide her back until it won't slide anymore. In this configuration, the S2000 was a bit roomier. YMMV.

The Fiata benefits from a newer/more modern interior, with several features that weren't available to cars in ~2007 (touch screen/infotainment, etc); but in the area of fit/finish and materials, they're actually pretty close. Both use a plethora of higher grade materials and have logically laid out interiors. Although I have a complaint about the Fiata's gauges- they have a red background that makes it difficult to see where the “redline” is at a glance when revving the car out/driving quickly. By contrast, the Honda's digital tach indicates it's redline very clearly when pushing it on a back road.

The base seats in the Fiata aren't bad at all, but I probably prefer the S2000's by a small margin, just due to the way the bolstering is shaped. With that said, I also sat in a Fiata that had the optional Recaro seats on the showroom floor and they felt excellent! The Recaro's seemed to have the perfect amount of bolstering and seemed to also allow the driver head to sit just a bit further away from the windshield. Or maybe it just felt that way? Regardless, if I was ordering one of these cars, I would spec it with the Recaro's without a thinking twice.

These 2 cars have very different engines, with very different characteristics. The S2000's 2.2L NA I4 doesn't have a bunch of low/mid-range torque, but it screams to it's 8200rpm redline, pulling harder and harder the more you rev it out.

The Fiata on the other hand has a small 1.4L SOHC turbo I4. There's a bit of old school turbo lag with this engine, but nothing you can't avoid if you're willing to stir the stick shift a bit. Although it really runs out of steam above ~5500rpm. The small turbo and SOHC head are really noticeable if you're trying to rev this motor out. The little 1.4L makes pretty decent mid-range punch, and at this elevation, it certainly felt a bit quicker than the last ND Miata I drove... but it has a pretty narrow powerband: between 3500-5500rpm it's fairly peppy, but above or below there, I was not impressed.

I think the Fiata's engine would be pretty decent as a semi-daily driven car. It's been a while since I drove the ND Miata, but the extra mid-range of the Fiata was definitely appreciated. With that said, when pushing this car back to back with the S2000 in the canyons, it's not even close. The Honda felt noticeably faster and revving it out, the S2000's F22C engine was far more rewarding; mostly due to the constantly rising/more linear powerband and of course the high RPM VTEC howl! At idle, the Abarth has a nice, low growl to it that really contrasts with it's small displacement; but up high, it's not even close, the S2000 sounds far more racy and aggressive.

The transmission in the Fiata is NOT the same unit that's in the new ND Miata. Some reviews say they still feel similar. I say those reviewers are full of E36 M3. The ND Miata's more “fragile” new gearbox certainly feels smoother than the Fiata's unit that came out of the last generation NC Miata.

The shifts in the Fiata are short and relatively direct, but in comparison to the ND Miata and my S2000, the Fiata feels notchy and a bit heavier. I prefer the feel in the ND and I prefer the S2000's shifter over both of them. This isn't to say the shifter in the Fiata is bad by any means; it's actually pretty good. The problem is, the ND's shifter is better and the S2000's is actually the best feeling shifter of any car I've ever driven, at any price. The Fiata is just up against very stiff competition.

Both cars have relatively soft/easy to use clutches, but they have very different catch points. The S2000's clutch is probably a bit softer, but they engage differently. Due to that fact, I almost stalled the Fiata a couple of times. It wasn't the car's fault at all, it just felt very different than both of the manual cars I drive regularly (MK7 Golf R & S2000).

For the record, the Fiata I drove didn't have the optional Brembo brakes. I was actually a bit shocked that the “Abarth” version didn't come standard with things like the bigger brakes and Recaro seats. With that said, the brakes seemed fine and were up to the task of spirited canyon driving. I leaned on them a bit during a steep downhill section, and didn't notice any signs of fade. They seemed perfectly adequate, but I remember being more impressed with the last Brembo equipped ND Miata I drove, at least in regards to pedal feel and response.

I feel I have to give another disclaimer: my S2000 has ATE Typ 200 brake fluid, going through a set of stainless steel braided lines. I felt like the S2000's brakes were just a bit more responsive, but the fluid and lines might have been a contributing factor.

Both cars have pedal positions that make heel/toe shifting an easy proposition, but the smoother shifter and more responsive NA engine in the S2000 give it an edge here.

One thing I find interesting is that the S2000 definitely feels like it has a stiffer/flatter suspension, but that doesn't translate into a harsh ride, as the Honda's chassis does a good job of soaking up road imperfections.

If you fit inside the Fiata comfortably, I could certainly see a person taking it on a road trip, as it's actually pretty smooth and cruised on the freeway with the greatest of ease. The Abarth package certainly didn't spoil the Fiata's road manners.

Pushing both cars through the canyons, they feel like very different machines. The S2000 has a slightly more rearward weight bias (49/51% F/R vs 54/46% F/R for the Fiata) and you can feel it. The Honda rotates more quickly and is more rewarding when you get it right.

The Fiata certainly has more body roll, but it's very controlled. I felt like it had less roll than the last ND Miata Club I drove, but it still maintains the same character: turn-in, wait a split second for the weight to transfer to the outside wheels and ride the corner out on the bump-stops. It's not harsh or violent, and actually transitions pretty smoothly. By contrast, the S2000 stays considerably flatter, making turn-in more immediate and giving it more of a “race car” feel.

In the Fiata, you can feel the extra weight in the nose of the car when you start to push it. I didn't hit the limits of the tires, but unless you're on the throttle, it feels more like the front wants to wash out; whereas the S2000 has a rear end that is more eager to follow. The Fiata feels very confidence inspiring and forgiving; but it can't match the S2000 when it comes to fun factor or how rewarding it is when pushed hard.

The Fiata has a ~400 lbs weight advantage over the S2000, but I didn't hardly notice it. To be honest, the ND Miata had more of a lively, lightweight feel to it; whereas I think the extra weight in the nose of the Fiata (due to cast iron block, turbo plumbing, etc) took away from some of the super-light car feel.

I think the Fiata's steering is just a smidgen heavier than the S2000's, and both cars had decent feel for having electric-powered steering racks; but the thicker rimmed steering wheel in the Fiata felt better in my hands. Makes me consider getting a new wheel for the S2000!

Putting everything together, the Fiata felt like a nice, peppy, fun weekend car. I really enjoyed driving it and think it's a good alternative to the ND Miata, especially at high elevation, where the turbo helps you get up to speed.

But I would never consider trading my S2000 in on one. For driving back and forth to work, or cruising to weekend getaway spots, the Fiata makes a very interesting proposition, but when you start pushing it in the canyons, it cannot match the driver involvement that the S2000 has to offer. The Honda feels faster, the motor is more engaging/makes better noises, it has better throttle response, a smoother shifter, considerably less body roll, it's more eager to rotate and when you get it right, it's almost impossible to wipe the grin off of your face!

I would have no problem recommending the Fiata to friends and associates; but the S2000 won't be leaving my garage anytime soon.

Petrolburner
Petrolburner Dork
3/15/17 7:08 p.m.

Wow, thanks for the thorough comparison. I'm just going to go check S2000 prices again on craigslist...

Grizz
Grizz UltraDork
3/15/17 8:10 p.m.

How do you think the Fiat would do with a bit more power in it?

Cause I know there are 500 guys with 200+ off an ecu tune on the motor.

Flynlow
Flynlow HalfDork
3/15/17 8:54 p.m.

Nice comparison. I completely agree on the s2000's shifter being the best there is, at any price point.

Occasionally, an OEM gets some aspect of car development perfect. I think at that point all other OEMs should just concede the point, save the R&D costs, and use the same design, as in the case of the s2000's shifter and the ND Miata's convertible top.

JimS
JimS New Reader
3/16/17 10:18 a.m.

Drove an 04 S2k for 12 years. I traded for a 911, the only car I would trade for, but I still have regrets. Loved my S2k and understand why it's not leaving your garage.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/16/17 10:33 a.m.
Grizz wrote: How do you think the Fiat would do with a bit more power in it? Cause I know there are 500 guys with 200+ off an ecu tune on the motor.

They all have pre-2012 models, right? Because nobody knows how to reflash the newer cars yet, including the 124. You can get a little tiny smidge more power, but mostly what you get is exaggerated lumpiness in the power delivery. There may have been some claims to the contrary elsewhere but none of them can be duplicated on our dyno.

You obviously didn't drive the ND and the Fiat back to back, because the laggy little engine becomes really apparent in that case. It's actually not a very good sports car. It's a cruiser for people who like a car with pseudo-vintage styling and who like the feel of the car surging forward on a roll-on. Very much not the same people who would buy an S2000. If "drive to eat" is one of your mantras, the Fiat may be for you.

All ND-chassis cars (Fiat included) need an alignment before their chassis really starts to work. The factory settings are approximate at best. FYI.

roninsoldier83
roninsoldier83 GRM+ Memberand Reader
3/16/17 1:49 p.m.
Grizz wrote: How do you think the Fiat would do with a bit more power in it? Cause I know there are 500 guys with 200+ off an ecu tune on the motor.

More power always helps!

According to most of the reviews, it looks like the 1/4 mile trap speed for the 124 Spider is around 92-95mph vs around 97-100mph for the AP2 S2000. So, roughly a ~5mph gap. I would guess that if you could coax another ~30+hp out of the 124, it would probably be pretty close, power-wise. Driving dynamics are a whole different story.

Grizz
Grizz UltraDork
3/16/17 2:00 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner:

I haven't driven either of them, mostly curiosity on my part, since the Fiat ticks all the boxes in the looks department for me.

I do wonder why they picked the 1.4 instead of the 2.4 but my first guess is either size or cost.

roninsoldier83
roninsoldier83 GRM+ Memberand Reader
3/16/17 2:18 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner:

You're correct, sir. I did not drive the Fiata back to back with the ND. Although I did actually notice the turbo lag and mentioned it above:

roninsoldier83 wrote: The Fiata on the other hand has a small 1.4L SOHC turbo I4. There's a bit of old school turbo lag with this engine

I felt like the Fiata made decent power between 3500-5500rpm, but I mentioned I wasn't impressed with it below, or above those RPM's. It certainly doesn't have the same feel as more modern, nearly lag-free turbo engines like the VW GTI, Focus ST, etc. My Golf R's [significantly larger] turbo felt considerably more responsive.

From what I can tell, the 124's engine is pretty old school:

-SOHC head with a cast iron block. -Port injection with 9.8:1 compression. -Single scroll turbo. -Traditional exhaust manifold setup.

By comparison, a lot of more modern turbo engines are now direct injection, higher compression, running twin-scroll turbos bolted straight to the head(s) with the "manifold" plumbed directly into the head. And you can certainly tell the difference. A lot of the better modern mills are hitting full boost/torque around 1500-2000rpm, whereas the little Fiata had considerably more lag. Felt more old school.

From what I can remember, the ND did seem to have better driving dynamics; or at least the front end felt lighter and it seemed more eager to rotate.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/16/17 3:03 p.m.

The biggest problem with the 124 engine is that it's fairly small and that turbo is running a LOT of boost with very little ignition advance. I don't think it's an "old school" thing because we know it's possible to make a responsive turbo setup without really high compression, multiple scrolls or an integrated manifold. FYI, I think the integrated manifolds are mostly to ensure the cats light off sooner by getting them closer to the ports.

I know you mentioned it, but in my experience you underplayed it. On our track, you have to do the classic "brake, gas, turn" lag compensation technique which you do not have to do with a 25-year-old Miata running an aftermarket turbo. Drive the Fiat around on the street and not in "evaluation mode" and you'll find it's really easy to catch the engine off-guard and flat footed. Reminds me of my 1988 GTX with a bad dizzy. Talk about old school.

The ND does indeed rotate better, partly due to 100 lbs less weight on the nose and partly because you can use that quick response throttle and torque to drive the car off the corner. We had to alter the setup of our Fiat fairly dramatically to get it to turn.

roninsoldier83
roninsoldier83 GRM+ Memberand Reader
3/16/17 3:38 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner:

You might be right about the integrated exhaust manifold. I guess I always just assumed that they played a role into reducing the boost threshold. I know that cars like my MK7 Golf R and the Ecoboost Mustang are running direct injection/high compression, with integrated manifolds and twin-scroll or dual inlet turbine housings; they make around ~300hp and have significantly less lag than the similarly powered STI's and EVO's of yesteryear. I always figured the reduced exhaust piping was at least a minor contributing factor. Maybe I'm mistaken?

All I know is that when I drove the 124, in regards to lag/feel, the engine reminded me more of the old 1st Gen DSM, or 2002-2005 2.0L WRX... "old school", but with less top-end. I figured the SOHC head played some role in limiting the engine's ability to breath up top.

You're correct, I didn't spend much time driving around town in it; my drive was mostly just freeway and canyons. The combination of small displacement and little timing advance would certainly explain the lag I did notice, though.

You guys obviously know a hell of a lot more about the intricacies of the 124's motor than I do! Any idea what the hurdle is with developing a way to tune it?

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/16/17 3:48 p.m.

No access to the ECU. Also, we've tried pulling off the entire exhaust system...no gain. The entire intake...no gain. The days of picking up significant power by swapping out a muffler are gone, although you'd be hard pressed to believe it if you saw the routing on the Fiat. Modern engines just know too much about what's going on.

Ransom
Ransom GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
3/16/17 11:24 p.m.

The MultiAir (with turbo plumbing) is that much heavier than the contemporary Miata engine!?

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/17/17 9:39 a.m.

The question is really "the contemporary Miata engine and transmission are really that light?"

They are. I've had both of these cars on our own scales (along with the RF) and there's almost exactly a 100 lb weight difference, every single bit of it on the nose. Some of that will be the bigger, longer bodywork on the front but it doesn't seem to have affected the back at all.

Ransom
Ransom GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
3/17/17 11:09 a.m.

Wow. I'll readily buy that the SkyActiv bits are especially light, but 100 lb is enough to make me suspect the Fiat mill is on the porky side as well. That's a lot of mass to take off a reasonably modern drivetrain of similar size.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/17/17 11:20 a.m.

Numbers from our scales and our cars:
GT ND: 1213 lbs F, 1115 lbs R. 52.1% front
Club ND: 1210 F, 1103 R. 52.3% front
Fiat Classica: 1302 F, 1110 R 54.0% front
GT RF: 1229 F, 1192 R 50.7% front (top up), 50.4% front (top down)

The Fiat engine has an iron block, so there's part of it. But that Mazda engine is incredibly optimized. Very thin walls on the castings. I want to weigh a head next time I have one off.

roninsoldier83
roninsoldier83 GRM+ Memberand Reader
3/17/17 6:24 p.m.

Makes sense. Cast iron block, turbocharger+intercoolers+piping and a slightly longer front overhang.

It's been a while since I've driven the ND Miata, but if I had to pick between the Miata & the Fiat, I would go with the Miata. Even at this elevation (5200 ft).

Maximus
Maximus
8/14/18 3:21 p.m.

Hi everyone, 

I just ordered a red 2019 Abarth 124 Spider with Recaro seats, LEDs, Bose audio and the Record Monza exhaust.

A few clarifications for those still on the fence:

1. The Spider sounds way better, much more racy and exotic. (it comes standard with the RM exhaust in Europe, not in US, although it is now an option!

Proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA6dDwz9oKo

2. Since it is a turbo, it can be easily tuned to 200hp while still weighing 2,450 pounds.

3. The turbo lag is made better with the GFB Diverter Valve, a mod everyone does to their Spider.

4. Looks are subjective yes, but most people will say the Abarth looks better, most won't even know who makes it, giving it more exclusivity.

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