Car and Driver Comparison: Focus RS vs STI vs Golf R

Harvey wrote: Also, what are they putting on the Focus RS to get to $40k? You can get the basic model for $36k and you really don't need much more than what they put on it. IMO you don't want the full leather recaros. I guess if you live in cold weather you might want that RS2 package, but you still don't need it if it's gonna break the bank.

Supply and demand is what drives the price to $40k+. I think most, if not all, RS are already sold. I'll bet some of those go into mothballs for collectors, and others immediately hit the resale market for a quick flip.

Yeah, I agree my FoST isn't a full out luxury car interior and I wish it were a bit nicer. But it has all the goodies I want. I love the full leather Recaros, they're sweet. My real gripe with the interior is the MyTouch Sync system. When it works, I actually like it. But it goes on vacation from time to time and it's maddening when it does.

I feel like if I was looking at the R I would pick a Golf GTI with sport package over it. However if I really wanted the more performance I would get the Focus RS.

Golf R just feels like a luxury car to me than a dedicated performance car.

roninsoldier83 wrote: Even after a year of being over here the Golf R is still sold out of every dealership in my area....

I've seen base manual Golf R's go for well under MSRP. It seems most of the demand is for cars optioned up with DSG/DCC/DAP.

There's a guy on vwvortex who tracks R's in the pipeline. I had to go a few states over to get under MSRP. The local dealer wouldn't come down from $2K over MSRP.

Production is not large. The biggest volume dealer in the area is only getting 10 cars for all of 2016... and I think most of those are already sold. I was on a waiting list for months but then found one where the ordering buyer backed out.

I'm interested to see if VW cost-cutting measures include axing low volume products like the R.

jv8 wrote: My DD just went from an '04 STi (bought new) to a '16 Golf R. I love it! Yes, it's more like a quiet luxury car that can handle. But I'm old and and I have other project cars when I want a raw visceral experience. The R is the perfect DD for me. Sometimes I care about NVH and the quality of the seats/audio/etc. To all the people talking about an overpriced new specialty car... my STi was $29K new and I sold it 12 years later for $17K. Sure it's not an investment but it's not _that_ bad considering I got to drive an awesome vehicle that was never abused by the previous owner... all for about the same depreciation as run-of-the-mill transportation. If nobody buys these niche cars new they will all get cancelled. The R is probably already in danger due to diesel-gate.

All good points, though did you test out a 2016 STi? I compared the Golf R to a 2015 STi, ended up buying an Outback, so there's that, but I'm interested also in how you compared the 04 to the newer STi, if you did.

Egghead Racer wrote: All good points, though did you test out a 2016 STi? I compared the Golf R to a 2015 STi, ended up buying an Outback, so there's that, but I'm interested also in how you compared the 04 to the newer STi, if you did.

I really hated the fact my old STi wasn't a 5 door hatch. So no, I didn't even test drive a new STi. I need 4 tall seats and a hatch.

For my purposes I really like AWD... so basically it came down to Golf R vs Focus RS. Both great choices. I'm really happy with the R but if something goes wrong I won't have a problem heading over to the RS.

Klayfish wrote:

Harvey wrote: Also, what are they putting on the Focus RS to get to $40k? You can get the basic model for $36k and you really don't need much more than what they put on it. IMO you don't want the full leather recaros. I guess if you live in cold weather you might want that RS2 package, but you still don't need it if it's gonna break the bank.

Supply and demand is what drives the price to $40k+. I think most, if not all, RS are already sold. I'll bet some of those go into mothballs for collectors, and others immediately hit the resale market for a quick flip. Yeah, I agree my FoST isn't a full out luxury car interior and I wish it were a bit nicer. But it has all the goodies I want. I love the full leather Recaros, they're sweet. My real gripe with the interior is the MyTouch Sync system. When it works, I actually like it. But it goes on vacation from time to time and it's maddening when it does.

I've never been a "gotta have it" type with any car that would make me pay anything over MSRP. Hell, I probably won't even pay MSRP since MSRP is a hugely inflated number over cost in most cases.

The first Evos that came over dealers were blowing them up with $5k-10k markups, you would have to be an idiot to have paid that. Any markup over MSRP is unacceptable and in many cases the manufacturer doesn't want the dealer doing it either since MSRP is a good markup as it is.

If the supply sells out quick, they will end up making more and I'm pretty sure it won't be too long before MSRP is a given if not below MSRP.

kanaric wrote: I feel like if I was looking at the R I would pick a Golf GTI with sport package over it. However if I really wanted the more performance I would get the Focus RS. Golf R just feels like a luxury car to me than a dedicated performance car.

This is my favorite part of the Golf R. It's a proper grown up semi-luxury feeling hot hatch. An autocross friend has one and I love it. She's probably back a hair on time because it's not the absolute tip top choice for autocross, but it makes up for it by being a spectacular daily. Do they offer plaid seats on the R? I really want plaid seats in my life.

mazdeuce wrote: This is my favorite part of the Golf R. It's a proper grown up semi-luxury feeling hot hatch. An autocross friend has one and I love it. She's probably back a hair on time because it's not the absolute tip top choice for autocross, but it makes up for it by being a spectacular daily. Do they offer plaid seats on the R? I really want plaid seats in my life.

You like the R enough to trade the CTS-V wagon?

I'm sure you can get the R at or below MSRP because it's been on sale longer and I don't believe there is a volume limit. A FoRS is on my horizon but only if next year they are at MSRP and a local dealer will do A plan. If not I'm probably shopping used. But that's a conversation for another thread.

DanyloS wrote: So the 10+ yr old motor is still very competitive with the latest entrants...

They are still using the EJ25 and not an FB version?

In reply to jv8:

No, and I'm not likely to be in the market for one for a while, but I'm really looking forward to shopping them used someday. I think they're great and would make a fantastic old man car for me.

Storz wrote: Never would have thought a Golf would weigh less than a Subie. Crazy times indeed

That was my first thought: "What sort of bazaaro world have we entered when a VW Golf (with AWD!) is the lightest car in a comparison test?"

Otherwise, definitely some food to munch on...

jv8 wrote:

Egghead Racer wrote: All good points, though did you test out a 2016 STi? I compared the Golf R to a 2015 STi, ended up buying an Outback, so there's that, but I'm interested also in how you compared the 04 to the newer STi, if you did.

I really hated the fact my old STi wasn't a 5 door hatch. So no, I didn't even test drive a new STi. I need 4 tall seats and a hatch. For my purposes I really like AWD... so basically it came down to Golf R vs Focus RS. Both great choices. I'm really happy with the R but if something goes wrong I won't have a problem heading over to the RS.

Cool, thanks. I went with the Outback because of the lack of hatch myself.

Knurled wrote:

DanyloS wrote: So the 10+ yr old motor is still very competitive with the latest entrants...

They are still using the EJ25 and not an FB version?

Still the same motor in the current STI. Part of why I won't consider it. Too many friends have blown theirs up without any modifications.

Have been longingly watching the R's and was really surprised it stacked up so well against the RS. I've driven all the previous gen R's and was impressed by them. Still amused that the R is the lightest of the bunch by so much. I still measure VW weights in relation to the MKI cars...

mazdeuce wrote: In reply to jv8: No, and I'm not likely to be in the market for one for a while, but I'm really looking forward to shopping them used someday. I think they're great and would make a fantastic old man car for me.

I love how a Golf is the "old man" option moving from a Caddy

The CTS-V wagon is awesome and I looked at those hard... just couldn't spend $70K to order new and used (w/manual) they are unicorns...

Knurled wrote:

DanyloS wrote: So the 10+ yr old motor is still very competitive with the latest entrants...

They are still using the EJ25 and not an FB version?

FA

I'm hoping to see an FA25DiT or however they want to name it with ~350 HP. And be underrated like the current engine in the WRX.

Only it will likely have an EL header setup, so no burble, but will likely be twin scroll like the WRX.

pinchvalve wrote: PUH-LEASE! C&D is lying to everyone so that they can all buy the RS without too much of a markup. Once their editors all own an RS, they will release the REAL numbers.

Yeah, I sure found that out first-hand. Plus the meager 2000-unit allocation was sold out in a heartbeat. I'm just hoping they'll increase the allocation significantly for the 2017 model year.

roninsoldier83 wrote:

Harvey wrote: ...but the Ford is a realistic $36k MSRP car.

Unfortunately, the Focus RS is nowhere near a $36k MSRP car right now. MSRP + delivery = $36,775 without any options. I recently called several dealers in my area trying to see if one could be had for anywhere close to $37k.... snow balls chance in hell right now. Every dealer told me one of 2 things: 1. They pre-sold their entire allotment for the year. 2. A couple local (large) dealers said they refused to pre-sell any of them... instead they have long "we'll call you" lists. I was told that they would be marked up over sticker (ADM/"market adjustment") between $5000-$10,000. Maybe in a year or two they might be had for MSRP, but not right now. Hopefully Ford decides to actually bring enough volume for the market this car is creating. Even after a year of being over here the Golf R is still sold out of every dealership in my area....

In two years Ford will be discounting them to even move them. The car world moves so very fast that in 2 years there will be five others cars that will be quicker, cooler, newer, cheaper, more tech stuff etc. Everybody wants and has to have the latest and greatest. This is a really thin segment. Most people don't/won't spend $35K-$40K on a Golf, Impreza, Civic or Focus. It's just not a volume segment. Don't get me wrong, I personally really like the RS but when you near or break the $40K mark it's going to change some minds. It's such a shame about the dealer gouging though. Too bad we couldn't cut those bloated bastards out all together and just order on line. Oh geeeez, don't get me started again!

jv8 wrote:

mazdeuce wrote: In reply to jv8: No, and I'm not likely to be in the market for one for a while, but I'm really looking forward to shopping them used someday. I think they're great and would make a fantastic old man car for me.

I love how a Golf is the "old man" option moving from a Caddy The CTS-V wagon is awesome and I looked at those hard... just couldn't spend $70K to order new and used (w/manual) they are unicorns...

I kind of want to keep the V forever and use it to cruise the country and attend track days. Sort of a freelance One Lap for a retired dude. I'd still need a snowy weather car though.

Knurled wrote:

DanyloS wrote: So the 10+ yr old motor is still very competitive with the latest entrants...

They are still using the EJ25 and not an FB version?

Yes the current STi uses the EJ257.

I have spoken to a local dealer and the rumour coming out is that the 2017 STi will have a FA engine.

The WRX has been running the FA20T for 2 years now.

NGTD wrote:

Knurled wrote:

DanyloS wrote: So the 10+ yr old motor is still very competitive with the latest entrants...

They are still using the EJ25 and not an FB version?

Yes the current STi uses the EJ257. I have spoken to a local dealer and the rumour coming out is that the 2017 STi will have a FA engine. The WRX has been running the FA20T for 2 years now.

That sounds about right as far as rumors go. The STi seriously needs an update. As I said previously the WRX/STi should get the new wagon/hatchback style of the recently redesigned Impreza too.

NGTD wrote:

Knurled wrote:

DanyloS wrote: So the 10+ yr old motor is still very competitive with the latest entrants...

They are still using the EJ25 and not an FB version?

Yes the current STi uses the EJ257. I have spoken to a local dealer and the rumour coming out is that the 2017 STi will have a FA engine. The WRX has been running the FA20T for 2 years now.

Very interesting. I am not very impressed with the FA/B engines' architecture. It's great for N/A but it doesn't look like you can make things very beefy in there. The rod bearings are probably half the size of, say, the bearings in a Mopar 2.4.

Feedyurhed wrote: In two years Ford will be discounting them to even move them. The car world moves so very fast that in 2 years there will be five others cars that will be quicker, cooler, newer, cheaper, more tech stuff etc. Everybody wants and has to have the latest and greatest. This is a really thin segment. Most people don't/won't spend $35K-$40K on a Golf, Impreza, Civic or Focus. It's just not a volume segment. Don't get me wrong, I personally really like the RS but when you near or break the $40K mark it's going to change some minds. It's such a shame about the dealer gouging though. Too bad we couldn't cut those bloated bastards out all together and just order on line. Oh geeeez, don't get me started again!

The part of me that wants one hopes you're right. The part of me that remembers my paycheck comes from Ford hopes you're wrong, at least as far as having to discount them goes. berkeley the greedy closed shop dealers in the goat ass. Closed shop or free market pricing, not both.

I know after a couple of years GT500's were available below sticker, I hope the same is true here.

I'm not sure about your new hotness driving down prices theory goes though. First of all, sit down for this, they are not that expensive. Don't forget the average new car transaction is already over $35K, so the base price of the RS is basically at the new car average. Also, let's look at the super hot AWD market. Over the last 20 years you've had the (not available here) Escort Cosworth, the STi, R32, Evo and possibly a couple of Audi's. Older things like the Mazda GTR, Nissan GTR etc were never really in this league. There hasn't been much turnover or new additions to the market place until the RS arrived

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

"Super hot AWD" gets the waters muddied because it seems like everybody makes anything in all wheel drive. Skyline GT-R? Sure, but you can also get a BMW 335xi, or a G35/37x if you're afraid of the intersection of BMW plastic/magnesium and turbocharging. Yeah, okay they are luxury cars, but they're both blowing 300hp out of the water.

And then there's the elephant in the room, the two ton twin turbo direct injected V6 big power all wheel drive big brakes Monster. You know, the Taurus SHO/Lincoln MkZ. (What, Nissan made something like that too?)