Since we're having fun at GMs expense.
How about the X-400?
A 60 Bonneville with a supercharged 389? Yes please.
https://www.motortrend.com/features/hppp-0602-1960-pontiac-bonneville/
Since we're having fun at GMs expense.
How about the X-400?
A 60 Bonneville with a supercharged 389? Yes please.
https://www.motortrend.com/features/hppp-0602-1960-pontiac-bonneville/
Plymouth Howler.
Lord how I hate Chrysler and their Prowler abomination but they really should have built the Howler.
As for the Prowler? Chad Kroger owns one. That tells you all you need to know.
In reply to ShawnG :
Its canceled out by the fact that wearymicrobe had one too.
In reply to ShawnG :
The Syclone/Typhoon didn't suffer that fate, they weren't even built by GM. They were sent to PAS for upfitting, just like the GNX was built by McLaren/ASC, and the standard GN only got killed when the G-body was retired, by '87 it was ancient.
Personally, I wish Ford would have built the Lincoln L2K concept, wouldn't have bought one but wouldn't mind seeing them on the road everyday.
Elio Motors... Oh what could have been.
I wish they made a third generation Corvair.
On the GM theme, I have often wondered what might have become of the 2nd-gen Corvair if they hadn't abandoned it to focus on the F-body (at least that's my understanding). They kept it in production through the '69 model year, but instead of getting better, the good options dropped off and it just got boring. It could have been improved with a few details like disc brakes and a wastegated turbo.
The whole Corvair story could have been much more positive if they had spent a few more of those eminently pinchable pennies on the suspension of the first gen cars. All that development money gets spent and then they invariably try scraping their profits back by pulling quality out of the product.
Even the Vega - especially the Vega - would have been so much better if it hadn't been made so bad through deliberate cheapness.
Makes you wonder about the thought process:
GM: "we want to build cars that appeal to buyers of European cars"
Builds the Can-Am and later the Allante but gives up on the Corvair and Vega.
ShawnG said:GM: "we want to build cars that appeal to traditional GM buyers who may be casually considering European or Japanese cars but aren't really sure what all the gosh-darn fuss is about."
FTFY.
Tony Sestito said:ShawnG said:When Pontiac started testing the Fiero, the press thought it was the new Corvette. It also had the highest side-impact crash safety rating of anything in 1984. They had to stop selling them to GM staffers in order to have enough to sell to the public.
The GN stomped on the Corvette and got killed.
The Sy/Ty twins suffered the same fate.
The 81 WS6 Turbo T/A beat the Corvette on the skidpad in spite of being heavier with two more seats. The 80/81 Turbo cars made more HP and torque than the Corvette, only 10hp less than the 400 that the 301T replaced, even with it's primitive turbo system. The 301 Turbo was slated to go into the third-gen cars but got axed. Imagine what they could have done with more development and the SFI system from Buick.
Pontiac stuffed the 3.8 Turbo into the F-body using Bonneville cylinder heads and made more power than Buick, bested the Corvette again and got the chop.
The Solstice should have had a V8 but didn't.
All the '59 cars are gorgeous, then when Chevrolet designers got to the back end they just gave up.
The other divisions had so much potential but the GM brass kept on eating crayons.
While we are crapping on GM, I would like to also expand on the Turbo 301 thing.
The 3rd gen cars were in fact supposed to carry over the 301T. At the 11th hour, GM cancelled the engine's production and stuffed the 305 in there instead. The only thing that made it into production was the turbo bump hood.
Now, imagine if the 301T got the same development that the 3.8 V6 Turbo received. It's easy to forget in the wake of the legendary Grand National, but that engine in carbed form suffered from a lot of the same complaints people had of the 301T. Essentially, GM robbed us all of a cheap, turbocharged, MPFI, and intercooled V8 that would have made the Grand National a curious footnote in comparison.
And on the hood thing: that wasn't the last time GM did that.
In 2000, GM decided to slap a supercharger and a 5-speed manual in the 3.4L V6 in the Grand Am to create a concept called the SC/T. It made 265hp which was a decent amount at the time, and the thing was basically production ready. It was going to serve as an affordable performance car in their lineup slotted under the Grand Prix GTP, and I wanted one. Motor Trend in particular was enamored with it, and begged GM to build the thing. Only part that made it to production, again, was the hood.
They still continue to trip over themselves. They are the grand masters of building something amazing and then either canceling it immediately or trotting it out half-baked as an appearance package no one wants. Such is the way of things.
They, effectively, beat Ford to the ecoBoost engine, then said "nah, no one gonna want that."
Maverick with the 2.7T, transmission with gears and AWD.
Ford? Waiting...
John Welsh said:Here's the one that gets me...The Camaro is gone and The Mustang is on life support.
They should have made a 4 door Camaro and Mustang.
Now, before you freak out at the thought and accuse me of heresy, keep in mind that the same thing was said about Jeeps, that a true Jeep soft-top had to be 2 doors. Look what happened there. After a million year delay they finally offered a 4 door. Now, the 4 door must outsell the 2 door 100:1. Heck, I'm amazed they still offer a 2 door.
If a Camaro/Mustang 4 door had been offered, people with kids would buy them to tote the offspring to school during the week and then possibly take it to the track on the weekend. The popularity of these 4 door sales would be the very thing that keeps the brand/model alive.
Yep, however not an ultra long variant like you've shown. Just make a sedan Camaro or Sedan Mustang.
The ATS was very close to this, but somehow cost $20k more.
I got a ride in a mythical turbo Fiero. A friend's dad from my old neighborhood in Toledo was high up at AP Parts. They made a lot of OEM exhaust parts for the big 3. They were tasked with making the exhaust for it. I don't recall if it was called an engineering exercise or pre-production but it was maroon when they were only selling red, white and blue.
It was quite quick but not scary fast. When you consider the Corvette of the day, it was right there.
Worth noting that while everyone talks about the turbo-4 Fiero, the range-topping model was to be factory-equipped with the 3400 Twin-Cam. While that engine made 210hp in other applications, I could see it maybe picking up a few more in the Fiero (shorter, less-restrictive exhaust perhaps), which would have made for a pretty spicy meatball for the era.
prodarwin said:John Welsh said:Here's the one that gets me...The Camaro is gone and The Mustang is on life support.
They should have made a 4 door Camaro and Mustang.
Now, before you freak out at the thought and accuse me of heresy, keep in mind that the same thing was said about Jeeps, that a true Jeep soft-top had to be 2 doors. Look what happened there. After a million year delay they finally offered a 4 door. Now, the 4 door must outsell the 2 door 100:1. Heck, I'm amazed they still offer a 2 door.
If a Camaro/Mustang 4 door had been offered, people with kids would buy them to tote the offspring to school during the week and then possibly take it to the track on the weekend. The popularity of these 4 door sales would be the very thing that keeps the brand/model alive.
Yep, however not an ultra long variant like you've shown. Just make a sedan Camaro or Sedan Mustang.
The ATS was very close to this, but somehow cost $20k more.
supply and command
prodarwin said:John Welsh said:Here's the one that gets me...The Camaro is gone and The Mustang is on life support.
They should have made a 4 door Camaro and Mustang.
Now, before you freak out at the thought and accuse me of heresy, keep in mind that the same thing was said about Jeeps, that a true Jeep soft-top had to be 2 doors. Look what happened there. After a million year delay they finally offered a 4 door. Now, the 4 door must outsell the 2 door 100:1. Heck, I'm amazed they still offer a 2 door.
If a Camaro/Mustang 4 door had been offered, people with kids would buy them to tote the offspring to school during the week and then possibly take it to the track on the weekend. The popularity of these 4 door sales would be the very thing that keeps the brand/model alive.
Yep, however not an ultra long variant like you've shown. Just make a sedan Camaro or Sedan Mustang.
The ATS was very close to this, but somehow cost $20k more.
Cadillac badges.
A customer of mine who had more money than I will ever see in my lifetime drove a Yukon Denali.
I asked why not an Escalade.
He answered "I'm not stupid"
DirtyBird222 said:NickD said:A 401 CJ said:NickD said:The Pontiac Banshee was basically production ready, a Pontiac version of the Corvette, using the same platform but cheaper in price and using Pontiac V8s, but GM stopped it from going any further because they didn't want it to undercut the 'Vette.
I think it was to poke John Delorean in the eye. A lot of politics at play.
You could write an entire book on the subject of cars being canceled or choked down because GM didn't want to dethrone their precious Corvette. Don't make the Corvette better, heavens no, just make everything worse.
There was a Buick engineer who said Buick had more plans for the turbo V6 than just the Grand National/GNX and had a number of prototypes running around at Milford that were basically production-ready, including a Lesabre Limited Estate Wagon and both FWD and AWD Reattas. They were out doing acceleration testing at Milford Proving Ground, and the Corvette guys were there and they decided to have a little shootout and they outran the Corvette with the Lesabre wagon. The Corvette guys left and went to management and within a week, management came down and shut down the whole Buick V6 program and axed any plans to put the cars into production.
GM is it's own worst enemy. It's like they were an arm of the US Gov't even before the '08 crisis, constantly hamstringing themselves.
And I personally still feel like they have no right to exist. They literally changed the rules just for them. And although I still own a GM product I won't purchase another. Ever.
And don't even get me started on the new GM and their bigger than ever SUV's and trucks and especially that 9000# EV they're selling to inattentive soccer moms with the same acceleration performance envelope as a liter bike. Mary Barra should be ashamed. Now get off my lawn!
DarkMonohue said:On the GM theme, I have often wondered what might have become of the 2nd-gen Corvair if they hadn't abandoned it to focus on the F-body (at least that's my understanding). They kept it in production through the '69 model year, but instead of getting better, the good options dropped off and it just got boring. It could have been improved with a few details like disc brakes and a wastegated turbo.
The whole Corvair story could have been much more positive if they had spent a few more of those eminently pinchable pennies on the suspension of the first gen cars. All that development money gets spent and then they invariably try scraping their profits back by pulling quality out of the product.
The thing with the Corsair was, GM had already decided to discontinued it before Unsafe At Any Speed. It had too many unique parts and machining processes and it wasn't that profitable, compared to the more conventional Nova. But then Nader wrote his book and they felt like discontinuing the Corsair immediately afterwards would have looked like an admission of guilt. So they kept in production and decontented it and let it run it's course.
In reply to NickD :
That's more or less in line with what I've heard. Typical GM, in that they absolutely nail the second-gen Corvair and then abandon development, if not production. The Mustang showed very clearly how much profit there was in a more conventional platform dressed up for the youth market. Although I don't really blame GM for pivoting to the Camaro, it's still fun to ponder how far the Corvair could have gone.
From GM to MG now. Surely I can't be the only one who wonders how good an MGB Twin Cam could have been.
NickD said:DarkMonohue said:On the GM theme, I have often wondered what might have become of the 2nd-gen Corvair if they hadn't abandoned it to focus on the F-body (at least that's my understanding). They kept it in production through the '69 model year, but instead of getting better, the good options dropped off and it just got boring. It could have been improved with a few details like disc brakes and a wastegated turbo.
The whole Corvair story could have been much more positive if they had spent a few more of those eminently pinchable pennies on the suspension of the first gen cars. All that development money gets spent and then they invariably try scraping their profits back by pulling quality out of the product.
The thing with the Corsair was, GM had already decided to discontinued it before Unsafe At Any Speed. It had too many unique parts and machining processes and it wasn't that profitable, compared to the more conventional Nova. But then Nader wrote his book and they felt like discontinuing the Corsair immediately afterwards would have looked like an admission of guilt. So they kept in production and decontented it and let it run it's course.
Only the Japanese were happy when they stopped building the Corsair
Mr_Asa said:Tony Sestito said:ShawnG said:When Pontiac started testing the Fiero, the press thought it was the new Corvette. It also had the highest side-impact crash safety rating of anything in 1984. They had to stop selling them to GM staffers in order to have enough to sell to the public.
The GN stomped on the Corvette and got killed.
The Sy/Ty twins suffered the same fate.
The 81 WS6 Turbo T/A beat the Corvette on the skidpad in spite of being heavier with two more seats. The 80/81 Turbo cars made more HP and torque than the Corvette, only 10hp less than the 400 that the 301T replaced, even with it's primitive turbo system. The 301 Turbo was slated to go into the third-gen cars but got axed. Imagine what they could have done with more development and the SFI system from Buick.
Pontiac stuffed the 3.8 Turbo into the F-body using Bonneville cylinder heads and made more power than Buick, bested the Corvette again and got the chop.
The Solstice should have had a V8 but didn't.
All the '59 cars are gorgeous, then when Chevrolet designers got to the back end they just gave up.
The other divisions had so much potential but the GM brass kept on eating crayons.
While we are crapping on GM, I would like to also expand on the Turbo 301 thing.
The 3rd gen cars were in fact supposed to carry over the 301T. At the 11th hour, GM cancelled the engine's production and stuffed the 305 in there instead. The only thing that made it into production was the turbo bump hood.
Now, imagine if the 301T got the same development that the 3.8 V6 Turbo received. It's easy to forget in the wake of the legendary Grand National, but that engine in carbed form suffered from a lot of the same complaints people had of the 301T. Essentially, GM robbed us all of a cheap, turbocharged, MPFI, and intercooled V8 that would have made the Grand National a curious footnote in comparison.
And on the hood thing: that wasn't the last time GM did that.
In 2000, GM decided to slap a supercharger and a 5-speed manual in the 3.4L V6 in the Grand Am to create a concept called the SC/T. It made 265hp which was a decent amount at the time, and the thing was basically production ready. It was going to serve as an affordable performance car in their lineup slotted under the Grand Prix GTP, and I wanted one. Motor Trend in particular was enamored with it, and begged GM to build the thing. Only part that made it to production, again, was the hood.
They still continue to trip over themselves. They are the grand masters of building something amazing and then either canceling it immediately or trotting it out half-baked as an appearance package no one wants. Such is the way of things.They, effectively, beat Ford to the ecoBoost engine, then said "nah, no one gonna want that."
The only thing wrong with the 301 Turbo was that they forgot to put a decent engine under the turbo. Why on god's green earth didn't they develop the 305 Chevrolet into a turbo motor if they wanted a turbo V8? Because it would have been faster than the Corvette that could only ever be an N/A front engine 2-seater because that's all that that demographic would buy - at least that's what they told themselves. They deserved bankruptcy.
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