Catastrophic Failure - Mazda 6 Front Subframe

Knurled. said:

In reply to SVreX :

We can get good used ones that are inspected, blasted and painted for $200-300 or so.  That would be a tough number to beat for a new product.

Who’s “We”??

OP stated the part is $2000 CND with a 6 week delivery. 

Saron81 said:

In reply to Tony Sestito :

Devils advocate:

It’s a 10 year old car. Things rust, especially in certain climates. How long is a company supposed to guarantee things not to rust? It wasn’t too long ago that a car would be considered pretty near the end of its useful lifespan after 10 years. 

The average age of a registered car is 11 years old.  If the average car up north has a high likely hood the subframe will rust out and it will have a catastrophic suspension/frame failure (i.e. the average vehicle could become a large safety risk for both the driver/passengers, but others on the road as well) then I would agree it needs to be addressed.

In reply to Knurled. :

I think these are rusting form the inside out so you don't see it until things are really bad.  I have been told that unless you are really looking for it it is easy to miss.  In affect no warning until it is at a dangerous point and something that your average person would not see never mind actually be looking for it.  The average person goes under there car how often during ownership?  Also this is not an enthusiasts car this is the Mazda version of the Camry so even if it is looked at it is not by people that would know enough to look for it.  Not to knock the people at the speedy lube but they are not exactly qualified either.  For state inspections we don't look for things like this.  We probably should but that is another topic for another thread.   

Saron81 said:

In reply to Tony Sestito :

Devils advocate:

It’s a 10 year old car. Things rust, especially in certain climates. How long is a company supposed to guarantee things not to rust? It wasn’t too long ago that a car would be considered pretty near the end of its useful lifespan after 10 years. 

Mazda built the 2nd Gen 6 from 2009 to 2013. Yes, the early ones are coming up on being 10 years old, but what about the 5 year old ones built in 2013? It's happening to all of them from what I've heard; it's a design flaw and not an age thing. 

I live in the rust belt. It's pretty rare to see something that's 10 years old with severe, chassis-compromising rust, even up here. The only other cars from that vintage that I've seen this type of chassis rot on are the Jeep Compass/Patriot/Dodge Caliber. I'd chalk that up to bad design as well. If you go a few years further back, the Big Three pickups can have severe corrosion problems, but it's rare to see even the most beat-up 2009+ ones with these issues. 

Mazdas have gotten their body rust issues under control for sure. Like I said before, I have a 2012 3, and the fenders, doors, and wheel wells are clean and rust free, although I'm more vigilant on keeping it that way. My wife's old 2010, which we were WAY less vigilant with, was also rust free in those areas. Only rust problem she had was her transmission pan rotting out. That happened when it was about 5 years old. That had a Ford part number on it though, so I don't blame Mazda.  

Speaking of Ford (and this was mentioned before), I wonder how the subframes of the sister-car Fusion and Milan are holding up? 

Tony Sestito said:

Mazdas have gotten their body rust issues under control for sure.

I'm afraid this is just like the Subaru 2.5L headgasket issues...

Internet in 2003:  Subaru headgasket is a non issue for the SOHC motors ('98+)

Internet in 2006:  The problem was fixed in 02'

Internet in 2010:  The problem was fixed in 2005

Internet in 2015:  The problem was fixed in 2010

etc.

I would plan a roadtrip to the big junk yards of the sunny southwest.

There is at least 1 second gen 6 at my local pullapart (Mont Al).  Edit:  front subframe price for Pullapart is $99.95 WITH SUSPENSION plus 3 bucks enviro fee.  Maybe we could start some kind of sticky for parts requests with a system for time and labor payment? Maybe figure what the job pays at a dealer/indy for replacement and go actual parts cost plus half labor plus actual shipping?  If someone was hard up for cash and another was hard up for a part........

I mean damn, OP had to buy a whole new car to replace an otherwise decent '09?!? WTF?

dean1484 said:

In reply to Knurled. :

I think these are rusting form the inside out so you don't see it until things are really bad.  I have been told that unless you are really looking for it it is easy to miss.  In affect no warning until it is at a dangerous point and something that your average person would not see never mind actually be looking for it.  The average person goes under there car how often during ownership?  Also this is not an enthusiasts car this is the Mazda version of the Camry so even if it is looked at it is not by people that would know enough to look for it.  Not to knock the people at the speedy lube but they are not exactly qualified either.  For state inspections we don't look for things like this.  We probably should but that is another topic for another thread.   

I agree with you, but I'm not even sure why this is a discussion. For one thing it's obviously a design flaw, because the subframe rusted only on one side of the car! How is that on the owner? The rest of the car, including the left side of the subframe, is completely rust free and yet the right side is basically entirely decayed, why is there even a question of the manufacturer needing to issue a recall?

What's the justification for this failure? Sorry we used chewing gum and bubble wrap to hold together the right side of your subframe, but geez, it's been almost 10 years, that chewing gum held up really well don't ya think? How about you just give us a pass on this one.

SVreX said:

Knurled. said:

In reply to SVreX :

We can get good used ones that are inspected, blasted and painted for $200-300 or so.  That would be a tough number to beat for a new product.

Who’s “We”??

OP stated the part is $2000 CND with a 6 week delivery. 

That sounds like a new part.  I'm talking about sourcing one from places like LKQ.  They shuttle parts around the US all the time, not sure if they cross borders.

If you go to the dealership to have a ten year old car repaired, yes, you are going to spend a lot of money.

dean1484 said:

In reply to Knurled. :

I think these are rusting form the inside out so you don't see it until things are really bad.  I have been told that unless you are really looking for it it is easy to miss.  In affect no warning until it is at a dangerous point and something that your average person would not see never mind actually be looking for it.  The average person goes under there car how often during ownership?  Also this is not an enthusiasts car this is the Mazda version of the Camry so even if it is looked at it is not by people that would know enough to look for it.  Not to knock the people at the speedy lube but they are not exactly qualified either.  For state inspections we don't look for things like this.  We probably should but that is another topic for another thread.   

Sounds a lot like the Toyota Tundra/Tacoma/Sequioa frames that were recalled and replaced. Rusted out from the inside - hard to tell it was an issue until a big hole formed in the frame or something broke....

That said, seems like Toyota made most people whole - not sure how long they resisted the recall/replace campaign though.

also, this thread needs some pictures........

ProDarwin said:

Saron81 said:

In reply to Tony Sestito :

Devils advocate:

It’s a 10 year old car. Things rust, especially in certain climates. How long is a company supposed to guarantee things not to rust? It wasn’t too long ago that a car would be considered pretty near the end of its useful lifespan after 10 years. 

The average age of a registered car is 11 years old.  If the average car up north has a high likely hood the subframe will rust out and it will have a catastrophic suspension/frame failure (i.e. the average vehicle could become a large safety risk for both the driver/passengers, but others on the road as well) then I would agree it needs to be addressed.

That must be nationwide.  I rarely see cars older than 2010 anymore.

Just about to go look at a first-gen 6, hmmmm. Gonna be vigilant!

To the OP, very sorry about this fiasco!

Is this front subframe the same as an engine cradle or a front K-member?  I ask because on www.car-parts.com I could not find a category for front subframe but could find engine cradle and or k-member.  For those part names, when searching Ontario I found that this place, Thorold, ON (Thorold Auto) shows a 2010 Mazda 6 engine cradle in Grade A condition in stock at the price of $250 cdn.   This is for the 2.5L 4 cyl version.  

Thanks to everyone for their input, suggestions, links and words of encouragement...much appreciated!

Probably a few things worth clarifying...

This appears to be an issue in all locations.  It's not a rust-belt only issue however I'm sure that only makes it worse.  That said there are reports from a variety of climates of people experiencing this issue.

It may not be due to the A/C drain but it definitely appears to be a factor in the issue.  Mine is a rust free car, even underneath aside from the frame directly below the drain. I confirmed today when talking to a parts supplier who imports his parts from Japan that he can get the subframe for the 6cyl model, just not the 4cyl model.  I would assume the A/C drain is in a different location on the 6cyl engine (though I don't know for sure).

Yes, the $2000 CAD price is the price for a new one from the dealer.  The 6 week lead time is a myth as orders that are 6 months old still haven't been filled (and the part has to be paid for in full before the order is placed!).  Locally a used subframe for a Honda, etc could be found for about $300 give or take.

As for noticing it before now...sure, it's my car so I should know what's going on.  A rusted subframe would never have been on my radar with this car.  Typically I change my own oil, at which time I would have noticed this, but in the time I've owned this car (about 18 months) life has been busy and I've simply taken it to the quick lube.  As someone mentioned, this is not an enthusiast car, it's much more of an appliance.

...and sorry for the lack of pictures.  It's still at the garage so while it's there I'm going to get them to do an oil change.  If someone buys it for the engine at least the oil will be fresh!  I'll be sure to drop by and take some pics while it's up on the hoist.  I need them for my own records anyway.  I'll be sure to post them so you can all see what I'm talking about.

Mark

I'm sorry this happened to you, definitely a lousy situation. I'd go the wrecker route, but give the part a good inspection first. Perhaps coat it in POR-15 before installing. Perhaps a car that spent most of its time parked in a garage prior to being (recently) crashed would have a good condition subframe.

It's kind of weird what gets recalled and what doesn't. In 2015 GM had a recall due to power steering failing on cars as old as 2004. To me, that's a sub-optimal situation, but why was it GM's fault to the point of liability, that some parts only lasted a moderate period of time? The cars still steered. Plenty of parts failing on a car have safety implications. I'd argue the sub-frame being completely deficient on a Mazda 6 is a greater safety concern than a power steering failure. It sucks and it reduces my opinion of Mazdas, but I don't think they should be liable. I think they should be forced to have a reasonable supply of parts. I think from a customer relations perspective they should lower the price. The resale value of Mazda 6s is going to fall through the floor and that is something manufacturers care something about.

Maybe it's time for a class action lawsuit.  Mazda has had some experience with those.  Apex seals wore out at around 51K on my RX-3.  Mazda warrented those engines for 50K.  At the time they wouldn't help me at all with repair/replacement cost.  No good will, no nothing.

In 1976 I received a check for several hundred dollars as a result of a class action suit v. Mazda.  I wasn't even aware of such a suit until I got the check.  It didn't make me whole but it helped quite a bit.

dean1484 said:

In reply to Knurled. :

I think these are rusting form the inside out so you don't see it until things are really bad.  I have been told that unless you are really looking for it it is easy to miss.  In affect no warning until it is at a dangerous point and something that your average person would not see never mind actually be looking for it.  The average person goes under there car how often during ownership?  Also this is not an enthusiasts car this is the Mazda version of the Camry so even if it is looked at it is not by people that would know enough to look for it.  Not to knock the people at the speedy lube but they are not exactly qualified either.  For state inspections we don't look for things like this.  We probably should but that is another topic for another thread.   

I will knock the quick lube places all day and all night.  They are interested in two things:  Moving cars through quickly, and through a filter of upselling things that THEY do while ignoring everything else.

If you only know knew how many greasable suspension components I have seen die an early death because oil change shops don't know what Zerk fittings are...

Riley_88 said:

It may not be due to the A/C drain but it definitely appears to be a factor in the issue.  Mine is a rust free car, even underneath aside from the frame directly below the drain.

The subframe is made somewhere entirely different than where the body is stamped/welded/painted.

B5 Audi A4s are notorious for having immaculate bodyshells, but subframes and rear shock mounts (which also locate the upper control arms) that disintegrate.  Mostly the rear shock mounts, which rust out right where they attach to the body so you can't see it very easily, but on cars where QuikLoob ripped the undertray off and failed to put it back on correctly so it blows off in the first rainstorn, the front subframes rot out at the rearward control arm mounting points.

You're upset.  I understand this, I GET this.  However, this is a very common occurence with cars this old.  Rather than requiring the manufacturers to make sweeping changes to meet the demands of a small subset of their market, a better solution would be to stop salting the roads and simply require that all vehicles have ice/snow tires under 3 years old between the months of November and May.   The cities save a ton of cash (Cleveland has already stopped salting roads except for critical thoroughfares, and they only plow non-critical roads when absolutely necessary) and buying new winter tires every couple years only looks expensive until you realize you no longer need to throw away your car every four or five years due to corrosion issues.

In reply to Knurled. :

OP claims this failure mode is also occurring outside of the rust belt. If that's true, then salting roads isn't required for the failure to occur.

In reply to Knurled. :

Front wheels changing from the direction they're pointed on a car that's 9 years old regardless of owner care or geographic location with a high enough frequency that good parts are hard or impossible to get is a recall that needs to happen all day every day in my opinion

A friend has a Tacoma, that the frame was replaced.  He was unaware until he got the paper work, for the replacement.

I own a 10 year old Volvo, a 10 year old Navigator, no frame rust issues.  My son has a 13 year old Ram PU, and 89 Thunderbird SC.  No frame rust issues.   My daughter drives a 13 year old Nissan, no frame rust issues.  We are in the rust/salt belt of NY.  Different vehicles, all over 10 years old.

I'd dare say that this is a Mazda issue.

Justjim75 said:

In reply to Knurled. :

Front wheels changing from the direction they're pointed on a car that's 9 years old regardless of owner care or geographic location with a high enough frequency that good parts are hard or impossible to get is a recall that needs to happen all day every day in my opinion

I had no problem finding used subframes in my area locally.  They ship them up from the south.

Should GM have recalled all N-bodies?  The mounting tabs for the rack and pinion fall off of those without fail after about ten years.  How about Dodge and the Neons that, WHEN the K-frames came apart, the wheel that came disconnected rammed back into the fender, doing body damage in addition the brake hose and inner CV joint that got pulled apart?

Seriously, this is not a Mazda problem, this is a GEOGRAPHIC problem.   This is an everybody's car fails the same way problem.

This is exactly why most people just lease a new car every three or four years for $100-300/month.  Old cars are for enthusiasts with discretionary income, or people who don't have good credit so they buy a $2000 rusted out junker every couple years.

In reply to Knurled. :

I guess our definition of old is different.  No problem and Happy Independence Day!

In reply to Knurled. :

Using examples of some truly E36 M3ty cars that weren't addressed in the past doesn't mean this one shouldn't be addressed. Recalls are effective in 2 ways, they address the issues with existing vehicles, and they cost a manufacturer money which is a pretty strong incentive to avoid similar issues in the future. Demanding better than mid-90s GM or Chrysler quality can only be a good thing. Manufacturers these days tend to do better than N-Bodies or Neons, and regulators tend to do better about holding them accountable when they design E36 M3ty stuff.

There are well over 100 complaints about this subframe issue on the NHTSA's website. No doubt many, many more haven't discovered the problem yet, it goes unreported, or aren't listed on the website. It's only going to become more and more frequent as these cars all hit the 10 year mark.