Catastrophic Failure - Mazda 6 Front Subframe

Knurled. said:

Justjim75 said:

In reply to Knurled. :

Front wheels changing from the direction they're pointed on a car that's 9 years old regardless of owner care or geographic location with a high enough frequency that good parts are hard or impossible to get is a recall that needs to happen all day every day in my opinion

I had no problem finding used subframes in my area locally.  They ship them up from the south.

 

Should GM have recalled all N-bodies?  The mounting tabs for the rack and pinion fall off of those without fail after about ten years.  How about Dodge and the Neons that, WHEN the K-frames came apart, the wheel that came disconnected rammed back into the fender, doing body damage in addition the brake hose and inner CV joint that got pulled apart?

 

Seriously, this is not a Mazda problem, this is a GEOGRAPHIC problem.   This is an everybody's car fails the same way problem.

 

This is exactly why most people just lease a new car every three or four years for $100-300/month.  Old cars are for enthusiasts with discretionary income, or people who don't have good credit so they buy a $2000 rusted out junker every couple years.

 

Just wait until some one dies or kids get run over or somthing and it will be a Mazda problem.  Getting some one killed is never going to be acceptable no matter how you spin the argument that it is not Mazda's fault.  

irish44j said:

also, this thread needs some pictures........

Here's two pics from an old (2005) F-150 that I did some frame work on a couple months ago.  I put about 10 square feet of metal on it to cap the frame where it was just... missing.  Most of it was on the left side, had to remove the fuel tank to get it all.

The funny part was, when I had it on the lift to evaluate how much steel I needed, the frame collapsed an inch while I was standing there with a tape measure.

dean1484 said:

Knurled. said:

Justjim75 said:

In reply to Knurled. :

Front wheels changing from the direction they're pointed on a car that's 9 years old regardless of owner care or geographic location with a high enough frequency that good parts are hard or impossible to get is a recall that needs to happen all day every day in my opinion

I had no problem finding used subframes in my area locally.  They ship them up from the south.

 

Should GM have recalled all N-bodies?  The mounting tabs for the rack and pinion fall off of those without fail after about ten years.  How about Dodge and the Neons that, WHEN the K-frames came apart, the wheel that came disconnected rammed back into the fender, doing body damage in addition the brake hose and inner CV joint that got pulled apart?

 

Seriously, this is not a Mazda problem, this is a GEOGRAPHIC problem.   This is an everybody's car fails the same way problem.

 

This is exactly why most people just lease a new car every three or four years for $100-300/month.  Old cars are for enthusiasts with discretionary income, or people who don't have good credit so they buy a $2000 rusted out junker every couple years.

 

Just wait until some one dies or kids get run over or somthing and it will be a Mazda problem.  Getting some one killed is never going to be acceptable no matter how you spin the argument that it is not Mazda's fault.  

If you saw what I saw every day, you would understand that the fault lies with putting an inch of salt or magnesium chloride or whatever on the roads per inch of snow.

Again, this is NOT a "Mazda" problem   It's an everybody problem.  Ford, Chrysler, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Audi, EVERYONE.   Usually people just have the tow truck haul the car straight to the junkyard when the suspension disintegrates.

Knurled. said:

Seriously, this is not a Mazda problem, this is a GEOGRAPHIC problem.   This is an everybody's car fails the same way problem.

 

If it was a geographic problem you would see it on more manufacturers cars. This is purely a design problem. It's not like Mazda is not well known for rust and these days there's no excuse for that.

I don't know where in Ontario he is from but where I am we get little snow.

Knurled. said:

dean1484 said:

Knurled. said:

Justjim75 said:

In reply to Knurled. :

Front wheels changing from the direction they're pointed on a car that's 9 years old regardless of owner care or geographic location with a high enough frequency that good parts are hard or impossible to get is a recall that needs to happen all day every day in my opinion

I had no problem finding used subframes in my area locally.  They ship them up from the south.

 

Should GM have recalled all N-bodies?  The mounting tabs for the rack and pinion fall off of those without fail after about ten years.  How about Dodge and the Neons that, WHEN the K-frames came apart, the wheel that came disconnected rammed back into the fender, doing body damage in addition the brake hose and inner CV joint that got pulled apart?

 

Seriously, this is not a Mazda problem, this is a GEOGRAPHIC problem.   This is an everybody's car fails the same way problem.

 

This is exactly why most people just lease a new car every three or four years for $100-300/month.  Old cars are for enthusiasts with discretionary income, or people who don't have good credit so they buy a $2000 rusted out junker every couple years.

 

Just wait until some one dies or kids get run over or somthing and it will be a Mazda problem.  Getting some one killed is never going to be acceptable no matter how you spin the argument that it is not Mazda's fault.  

 

If you saw what I saw every day, you would understand that the fault lies with putting an inch of salt or magnesium chloride or whatever on the roads per inch of snow.

 

Again, this is NOT a "Mazda" problem   It's an everybody problem.  Ford, Chrysler, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Audi, EVERYONE.   Usually people just have the tow truck haul the car straight to the junkyard when the suspension disintegrates.

What part of it is not being related to geographic location did you not understand?   Why did Toyota replace all those frames?   And by your argument if it is an everyone problem it seems the the other manufacturers have addressed the problem and designed there cars so they don’t have this problem. Also salt on the roads has been around long befor the Mazda 6 was first designed. It is not like they designed the car and then years later we started using salt.  At the moment it is not a Mazda problem but I suspect it will be soon. 

dean1484 said:hat part of it is not being related to geographic location did you not understand?   Why did Toyota replace all those frames?   And by your argument if it is an everyone problem it seems the the other manufacturers have addressed the problem and designed there cars so they don’t have this problem. Also salt on the roads has been around long befor the Mazda 6 was first designed. It is not like they designed the car and then years later we started using salt.  At the moment it is not a Mazda problem but I suspect it will be soon. 

Toyota replaced all those frames for the same reason they recalled everything ever for the unintended-acceleration issue:  They have no idea how culpability works in America so they roll over and suck it up.

The other manufacturers have NOT addressed this problem!  I cannot stress this enough.  If you only knew how many Taurus or N-body or J-body or Accord subframes I have replaced.  Or how many other cars I have seen scrapped rather than putting a few hundred bucks into having a new subframe put in because of all of the rest of the deferred maintenance.  (Ford 500s are also kinda bad for this, somehow that car attracts a lot of people who just plain don't care as long as it still moves)  This is not counting all the other cars where they get bad in structural ways that are NOT simple unbolt-and-bolt-in jobs, like having to rebuild the rear wheelwells on Ford Escapes then they rot out and leave the upper shock mount flapping in the breeze.

If anything, I see subframe failure the same way I see a rise in cancer deaths as a sign of improvement.  People are living past infectious diseases and heart attacks now, and cars are lasting long enough to not get scrapped from cosmetic rust or drivetrain failure.

And yes salt has been on the roads for a long time.  However, I also remember when you had to Bondo up the rust holes on your three year old car.  Rust prevention has been getting better, not worse, and it is a short memory span that ignores this.

STM317 said:

In reply to Knurled. :

OP claims this failure mode is also occurring outside of the rust belt. If that's true, then salting roads isn't required for the failure to occur.

This is the important part. I read it as well in the reports. 

In reply to dean1484 :

This is what the corrosion on a 2009 Mazda6 looks like (steering failed when the sub frame cracked). When braking I heard a loud snap and the steering started drifting. I had to turn it 180 degrees just to keep going straight. The right front wheel could be moved from left to right by hand, which also made a loud knocking sound.

Again, that is not unusual for a car that is nine years old already...

Knurled. said:

Again, that is not unusual for a car that is nine years old already...

Eh.  Generally I wouldn't expect to see a subframe that far gone unless the rest of the car is a rusty POS too (as in rockers rotted, fenders rotting, door rust, etc.). 

In reply to rslifkin :

The only rust on this 2009 Mazda6 is that shown in the photos above. I had it sprayed with Rust Check as well as Corrosion Free. The corrosion is so extensive on the sub frame that I am suspect that road salt must be getting inside the subframe and rusting it from the inside out. In that case, the rust proofing sprays would have done very little to prevent its destruction.

I have a 2003 Mazda 6 that is starting to rust fasteners, lines, etc...  the subframe is minty....

This seems like a design or manufacturing issue to me.  

Knurled. said:

Again, that is not unusual for a car that is nine years old already...

Disagree.

Knurled. said:

Again, that is not unusual for a car that is nine years old already...

I had a 20yo/200k truck, in the salt belt, that didn't have holes like that. I disagree, as well. 

Knurled. said:

Again, that is not unusual for a car that is nine years old already...

They brine and salt the crap out of our roads here in Delaware when there is even a chance of snow in the forecast.  If my 14-year-old TSX looked like that underneath I'd never buy another Honda product ever.

dculberson said:

Knurled. said:

Again, that is not unusual for a car that is nine years old already...

Disagree.

I thought I'd flesh it out more: I drive exclusively 10+ year old vehicles. I've owned over 40 cars and not a single one - other than my 66 pontiac - has had rust like that. Even the 66 Pontiac had an excuse, which was years of parking on grass in a wet area. I think maybe you see the worst of the worst, as a mechanic. But I can assure you that the average 10 year old car on the road in the north does not look like that. Otherwise there would be basically zero 11 year old cars on the road here.

The wife and I have put hundreds of thousands of miles on poorly built cars on salty roads and while bodywork has disappeared I’ve never had structural pieces disintegrate like that. 

NoMini said:

Knurled. said:

Again, that is not unusual for a car that is nine years old already...

I had a 20yo/200k truck, in the salt belt, that didn't have holes like that. I disagree, as well. 

The '09 F-150 that I put exhaust manifolds on today had see-through floors in the cab.

Subframes are made in different factories than the bodies.  They are generally NOT given any rustproofing in the way the bodies are.  They are what I think of as "long term" consumables:  maybe not have to replace every couple years like tires or brake pads, but you will go through a few if you keep the car for any reasonable length of time.

In reply to Knurled. :

Just stop it. You made your point way back. This is getting to the point of trolling. Agree to disagree and move on. 

The location and method of corrosion related failure of the suspension component is similar to the Mitsubishi Evolution failure. Mitsubishi is processing a recall to test and replace bad parts. For good parts the deal is they inject rust prevention coating into the component. 

Why it rusts seems to be just a nature of many years of use results in a collection factors to cause rust at that welded joint. I actually replaced my frame a few years ago due to the same joint area "failing" by bending a scary amount when I tried to remove the LCA. It also had a chunk of salt jammed under the steering rack. So from that corrosion at the rack and bending section, I ordered a new front crossmember. 

So my crossmember was done in by both factory defect and happenstance of salt getting stuck. Neither is a matter of extreme shock or fear. I guess I have seen a one year old car burst a brake hose and a three month old suspension bushing disintegrate! Stuff happens on our 3000 lbs cars going at 60Mph. Thus some have terrible crashes and others survive and fix.

Just part of the game. Hopefully Mazda will do what Mitsubishi has done. I only once got involved with a safety recall while an engineer at Chrysler. We spent many months researching testing fixes. Finding representative parts was hard. The worst was to release a fix and find out it created another problem. If I recall the guidance correctly, Mazda can't just replace your subframe with new as legally they are putting a known bad component on your car. They have to show proof of the fix first. 

I'd be angry if I owned it, I spend every day under cars that owners can barely afford an oil change for most of them being early 2000s era cars and I've never seen one that bad. My wife's saturn is a 14 year old Ohio car with 155k on it and the subframe is still black. 

The subframe on my 40 year old station wagon is in alot better shape then that.

    That is a odd failure...    Strange things do happen.   I had a Volvo with a few miles on it, I brought it to the dealer for a annual state inspection.  Why, I don't know, I never go to the dealer for anything.   But for some reason I thought it would be a good idea to have the dealer take a look at it.   Your delta links are bad.....   What is a delta link anyhow?   The rear suspension has a poorly designed bushing.   Rubber bushing, with a steel sleave pressed into a aluminum mount.  The steal sleeve will rust and expand as it rusts, this will cause the aluminum mount to crack and break.  The fix is to replace with the same thing, the dealer does this often.

      Maybe it is a good idea to have the dealer do a inspection once in a while, since they are more familiar with that car.

         When we do our own oil changes, look around; sure there might be some rust spots, but is any of it beyond just a little spot, is there anything wet near a brake, any excessive leaks, CV boots and other rubber parts.   If a rubber boot is cracked but the part isn't bad yet, you can schedule repair before a something goes bad.  Is anything trying to fall off?

      Odd the part isn't available, not a normal scheduled replacement part, but if several have been ordered, seems like the dealer network should get some in stock.   A used one that is not perfect could maybe be repaired, depending on condition.

      Seems like someone here could help with sourcing a part.   A new one that isn't actually available is $2,000  or a replacement car is needed, seems to be room for some labor to hunt down the part and ship it.    

          Do we need a section of the forum for parts sourcing help....

It would be interesting to send a sample of this subframe to a metallugist . Bad parts run?

dropstep said:

I'd be angry if I owned it, I spend every day under cars that owners can barely afford an oil change for most of them being early 2000s era cars and I've never seen one that bad. My wife's saturn is a 14 year old Ohio car with 155k on it and the subframe is still black. 

The subframe on my 40 year old station wagon is in alot better shape then that.

For real?  Saturns were ones that SHOULD have been recalled.  I saw them breaking the TCA mount off at less than four years old.

They did get a redesign in 1995-ish so that the arm isn't just attached to a cantilevered section, but it is still a weak design overall.  Sandwiching layers of thin gauge is a recipe for rot, as Dana/Toyota found.

Knurled. said:

dropstep said:

I'd be angry if I owned it, I spend every day under cars that owners can barely afford an oil change for most of them being early 2000s era cars and I've never seen one that bad. My wife's saturn is a 14 year old Ohio car with 155k on it and the subframe is still black. 

The subframe on my 40 year old station wagon is in alot better shape then that.

For real?  Saturns were ones that SHOULD have been recalled.  I saw them breaking the TCA mount off at less than four years old.

 

They did get a redesign in 1995-ish so that the arm isn't just attached to a cantilevered section, but it is still a weak design overall.  Sandwiching layers of thin gauge is a recipe for rot, as Dana/Toyota found.

For real. Its an 04 ion she purchased in 06. Aside from eating sway bar endlinks its had zero issues. It finally started burning oil at about 145k mileage. I'm a Ford fan but this has been a solid little car. We average 35 cars a day and most of the rust we see is all rocker/floorpan.