In reply to SVreX:
Ok, I get what you are saying. I am very concerned with being clear, sometimes difficult on the internet without all of the cues we use besides words to communicate.
I am not certain that it is only a tech inspection issue but I do agree that what you are saying would solve A LOT of problems. I don't think ALL but maybe 90%; let's leave a little wiggle room. 
SVreX wrote:Antihero wrote: So for those of us planning on bringong cars with stock seatbelts , seats etc what does all this mean?Nothing.
I would go further and recognize that a stock setup is very safe. A lot of good engineering goes into OEM parts and I really see no need to change them unless you have a very extreme build.
Ovid_and_Flem wrote: In reply to tb: In other words put the onus onus on WE the competitors bring cars that would clearly pass technical inspection for each discipline. If it don't pass you don't run that event
I agree that this is on us but I just wanted to submit one thought here. The spirit of this event is such that if a car doesn't pass tech other challenges would step up.
If anyone needs help with their safety (or any) setup and makes it well known I have no doubt that everyone who can help them would do so gladly. I don't want a situation where at the last minute a tech official says 'too bad, go home'.
John Brown wrote:SVreX wrote: This thread is blown completely out of proportion. "Mr Tech Inspector, please LOOK at the berkeleying cars. ALL of them." ""Mr Judge, please be prepared to give low scores to a competitor for workmanship and execution if they are poor, regardless of whether or not the car is cool" That is all.And this, people, is why we need the "plus eleventybillion" button.
X11ty,000,000,000
In reply to John Brown:
Direct and to the point! I like it!
I was under the assumption that these things have already been said. Maybe not, or maybe they need to be said again with emphasis; I dont know... I hope that would be enough... I have some doubts...
In reply to patgizz:
I agree, the hyperbole had made a strong point.
IF that happens it would PROBABLY work.
I still want to stay open minded and hear from people with other ideas or opinions. The system in place has already failed and we deserve some strong assurances before it can be called trustworthy again...
patgizz wrote: I know people are not coming right out, but the guys around me know i voiced fear for the life of the driver before the drags even started. Had I come up against it on the strip I would have refused to run at the same time.
Smart choice there and good of you to speak out. I think in the future we should all SHOUT our lungs out if we see something suspect.
I learned about the craziness after the racing was done and not even the full extent until on the drive home. I am glad nothing horrible happened and doubly glad that I didn't randomly wind up too close to a certain vehicle...
After I did see some horrible safety breaches I mentioned it to several people at GRM and was shrugged off with a 'tell someone else, some other time we will get to that' response which really wasn't helpful.
tb wrote: In reply to SVreX: Ok, I get what you are saying. I am very concerned with being clear, sometimes difficult on the internet without all of the cues we use besides words to communicate. I am not certain that it is only a tech inspection issue but I do agree that what you are saying would solve A LOT of problems. I don't think ALL but maybe 90%; let's leave a little wiggle room.
A culture of safety is only going to be promoted by FIRST having reasonable tech inspections. The rest will fall in place.
When we bury our concern under page after page of waay too many words, the basic request for a realistic tech inspection is lost, and we enter a battle of legalism while we try to fight over this nit picky little detail or that.
The safety rules ALREADY EXIST. All we need is a few people with the balls to enforce them.
In reply to SVreX:
If we all understand that is the rule, we know what the consequences are and the organizers enforce dq then that pretty much settles the matter. Thanks for prompting this most important discussion svrex.
I've been on the board a long time and a subscriber even longer. I've never made it to a Challenge, I just don't have the time for a build/travel/participate.
The remarks here are extremely worrying and make me never want to compete. It's pretty clear that safety is being blatantly ignored and favoritism/politics are involved in points/placement.
Turbos inside the cockpit? PVC rollbar/cage? Really? How is building your car to a basic level of safety "stifling creativity"? If someone builds an unsafe car, then gets legitimately protested for their drag time, they have no call to get upset. They never should've been able to compete if a proper safety inspection had been done to begin with.
If someone sees a safety violation, they should protest it! Otherwise the culture will never be changed...
I understand that the event has turned into an insular party for the guys that compete year after year. However there needs to be a baseline level of separatism in the judging as well as independent adjudication for tech inspections and protests. That way those of us who've never run and want to join the party feel that not only is it a safe event but that we're going to get a fair shake in the judging.
In reply to SVreX:
I think that you are probably correct
In reply to docwyte:
First, I hope that you do get the chance to come sometime. It really is a lot of fun and I have only been to about 1/3 of them.
I think that we all agree that it IS very worrying and things have finally hit a tipping point where reform is called for.
Part of the prompt for this discussion is that some us assumed proper tech was taking place. Also, there was a level of deception about exactly what was going on with some cars. Disqualifications should have happened in years past also but it seems that those in charge are very reluctant to do so.
I wouldn't hold your breath if you are going to wait for favoritism and politics to be removed from the event. I chose to just do my thing and not worry about it because I don't have the energy or willpower to fight it. I still have fun.
Most of us are huge proponents of keeping the bar to entry very low. I think that there is a big push to start with a very simple return to the basics of a safe and fair event. I think that we are being heard here and taken seriously.
I have been soured against events and turned away from them but I hope that this discussion does not turn anyone away from the challenge, it is still a great event.
tb wrote:patgizz wrote: I know people are not coming right out, but the guys around me know i voiced fear for the life of the driver before the drags even started. Had I come up against it on the strip I would have refused to run at the same time.Smart choice there and good of you to speak out. I think in the future we should all SHOUT our lungs out if we see something suspect. I learned about the craziness after the racing was done and not even the full extent until on the drive home. I am glad nothing horrible happened and doubly glad that I didn't randomly wind up too close to a certain vehicle... After I did see some horrible safety breaches I mentioned it to several people at GRM and was shrugged off with a 'tell someone else, some other time we will get to that' response which really wasn't helpful.
I read this entire thread and just shake my head at how neutered we've all become when it comes to speaking up/out. Fear of hurting others' feelings seems absurdly high on the list, higher than, apparently, the safety issues at hand. I've been called rude, a PITA, terse, and harsh on forums for calling out unsafe designs and I don't care, Why, because physics doesn't care; if it's unsafe it's unsafe, effing say something. If something happens, it's not the driver who's at fault, it's everyone standing around saying "I knew it was unsafe!" yet who said nothing. It's as if everyone grew up in overprotected homes where they were never criticized and instead always congratulated regardless how bad a job they did.
One quick story. At an HPDE, the organizers lined up the next group of cars really close to the track. Some people whined, some people mumbled, but NO one refused to park their car out there. Sure enough, someone lost it on the track and spun right into the parked cars. Oh yeah, you can bet there was all kinds of finger-pointing about how it was the organizer's fault, and technically it was, but it always takes two. One to do a bonehead thing and another to not speak up (and who shouts about how unsafe it was - after the fact).
I can't help but notice the near-complete absence of the GRM staff in this thread. I'm sure they're reading it, wondering how they're going to - very carefully with legal issues in mind - respond. I wasn't there, but as others have said, its a good thing for GRM that nothing happened, because people who demand their freedom to drive whatever they want will instantly turn on the organizers if something bad happens. In other words, people want complete freedom without any responsibility, which makes them very dangerous to have around. (And as noted below, I cut GRM some slack right now, given the nasty weather that very likely has their full attention.)
In reply to kb58:
That is a scary story about an unfortunate event. Thanks for sharing; it is something that we can all learn from.
You make a good point about feelings and how we treat each other, sometimes against their best interests. I think part of the problem with us policing each other is that we trust others to do it. Another real issue is that we are all very busy doing our own thing and don't have tons of spare time to check each other. When I spectate it feels like a long event and I see every car. When I compete it goes very quickly and I can barely keep my own POS alive and moving...
I don't expect to hear from GRM staff anytime soon. You are most likely very correct that they will take a very (rightfully so) careful position that is purposely vague. There definitely is a bit of wanting to have things both ways. Also, they are in the path of a major hurricane so are probably busy preparing for a storm big enough to disrupt their lives in big way.
You beat me to it, I was going to edit my response, cutting the GRM staff some slack given the impending weather.
In reply to kb58:
Sometimes I even type faster than I can think!
kb58 wrote:tb wrote:I read this entire thread and just shake my head at how neutered we've all become when it comes to speaking up/out. Fear of hurting others' feelings seems absurdly high on the list, higher than, apparently, the safety issues at hand. I've been called rude, a PITA, terse, and harsh on forums for calling out unsafe designs and I don't care, Why, because physics doesn't care; if it's unsafe it's unsafe, effing say something. It's as if everyone grew up in overprotected homes where they were never criticized and instead always congratulated regardless how bad a job they did. One quick story. At an HPDE, the organizers lined up the next group of cars really close to the track. Some people whined, some people mumbled, but NO one refused to park their car out there. Sure enough, someone lost it on the track and spun right into the parked cars. Oh yeah, you can bet there was all kinds of finger-pointing about how it was the organizer's fault, and technically it was, but it always takes two. One to do a bonehead thing and another to not speak up (and who shouts about how unsafe it was - after the fact). I can't help but notice the near-complete absence of the GRM staff in this thread. I'm sure they're reading it, wondering how they're going to - very carefully with legal issues in mind - respond. I wasn't there, but as others have said, its a good thing for GRM that nothing happened, because people who demand their freedom to drive whatever they want will instantly decide that they shouldn't have been allowed to. Can't have it both ways.patgizz wrote: I know people are not coming right out, but the guys around me know i voiced fear for the life of the driver before the drags even started. Had I come up against it on the strip I would have refused to run at the same time.Smart choice there and good of you to speak out. I think in the future we should all SHOUT our lungs out if we see something suspect. I learned about the craziness after the racing was done and not even the full extent until on the drive home. I am glad nothing horrible happened and doubly glad that I didn't randomly wind up too close to a certain vehicle... After I did see some horrible safety breaches I mentioned it to several people at GRM and was shrugged off with a 'tell someone else, some other time we will get to that' response which really wasn't helpful.
I didn't have all the details on the one i was concerned about until it came to looking closer Saturday morning. At that point of getting all the info, i was in shock.
Looking back, i feel bad for not speaking up louder when all it did was spin after spin after uncontrolled spin during the autocross, at one point wiping out the timing system at the finish line. Locally you get a DNF and booted from the event for that.
I wish I would have been more vocal than just to those directly around me.
All I ask, like svrex does, is thoroughly tech all the cars. I feel like my car was scrutinized more than last year, but i also went ahead and pointed out things that should have been looked at to the inspector knowing letter of the NHRA law like i do. I guess my biggest problem with my inspection was i got complimented on my roll bar and nitrous blow down tube and from those it almost seemed like they assumed i knew what i was doing and passed me. I made sure i pointed out my fuel line shield in the bellhousing area, my driveshaft loop because i let them know i'd be running drag slicks, and let them know where my battery was so they could inspect the hold down.
Next year I expect a more thorough tech inspection and hope the track can provide that for us.
I would hope everyone on the team for the main example has learned much and understands more how to build a safe car. Maybe they had no idea, some people don't. I'm not naming names on the forum because i want to give them the benefit of the doubt of ignorance to the laws of physics and material dynamics. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt that they didn't intend for their build to be an arrogant disregard to safety. I'm not really up on other people's feelings,but i am trying to be respectful in a public forum where 99.999% of the audience wasn't there. I don't want them to get a bad rap, I want them to come back even harder next year, safety rulebook in hand, and show us what they can do
I understand the reluctance to DQ someone who spent a bunch of time building a car, traveled to the event, spent money to do so and vacation time.
However (!!) that's exactly what has to happen. This isn't the responsibility of the participants, this falls squarely on the organizers. If the organizers aren't willing to put their feet down, then they need to hire independent safety inspectors who will.
I was a tech inspector for my local BMW club for many years. I finally had to stop as I'd had enough with the BS. Several times I was told to let blatant safety violations go by as "the participant drove all the way here and we don't want to turn him away".
Yeah, that's exactly the job of the safety inspector! To turn away those who show up with unsafe cars.
Listen, all of us feel we're a community and that the GRM staff are family, I get it. However several people have commented that the GRM staff blew them off when they raised concerns.
That's a HUGE issue as the fox is patrolling the hen house here. This is an event put on by GRM that gives them lots of publicity and is an enormous feature in their magazine. They have a vested business interest here and turning away participants or policing builds, pissing off people isn't going to help them out any.
That's why there needs to be an independent group of folks with no skin in the game who will have no issue with telling someone they can't compete unless "x, y, and z" get fixed first....
tb wrote: In reply to kb58: Sometimes I even type faster than I can think!
Huh? I completely agree with your post above and was agreeing with it, not very clearly I guess.
kb58 wrote:tb wrote: In reply to kb58: Sometimes I even type faster than I can think!Huh? I completely agree with your post above and was agreeing with it, not very clearly I guess.
No, you were clear. I am not always clear sometimes. All good!
Here's another way to look at it and another thing to consider.
Someone comes to the event to see what it's about, sees what's allowed to run, then goes home and builds something really dangerous because they think it's acceptable. That's the circle that needs to be broken, by turning away dangerous cars such that others realize, "I best make sure my car's safe."
My Vette Has been somthing I have Planned on Being Fast and Safe From the begining, It will have a very goood set of bars and a funny head hoop for NHRA, I have owned the Bars for years and will put them in. FMV A spool of wire. That's what I ment about Cage cost making me overbudget, That and my "EveryDay" engine. With the strength asosiated with A set of bars I think you should build kinda around them or as part of the plan.
In reply to patgizz:
I don't think anyone here is interested in blaming someone for not catching the mistakes ahead of time. I am not and didn't try to imply that. Most of us had no idea what was actually going on.
I was far away handing out water when the timing gear got nailed and wasn't sure what car did it. I thought it was a very safely built car that was past its envelope of power/handling but I just couldn't tell who it was. In pretty much everywhere I have run (all over the east coast and a bit of the midwest) that is an instant DQ and you probably wouldn't be allowed back.
Makes me feel strongly that there is too much going on for people otherwise occupied to monitor it all.
kb58 wrote: Here's another way to look at it and another thing to consider. Someone comes to the event to see what it's about, sees what's allowed to run, then goes home and builds something really dangerous because they think it's acceptable. That's the circle that needs to be broken, by turning away dangerous cars such that others realize, "I best make sure my car's safe."
Good point!
It sucks to make an example of someone and be harsh but there is a very good reason it is done!
Couple of points I want to make:
We are not trying to villian-ize anyone or their cars. We are trying to help everyone make their cars even better.
It is pretty clear by now what car (or two) everyone had a problem with. If I had built either of those cars I would be feeling pretty beat up without a fair chance to defend myself reading through this thread. I want to remind those participants that I love the ideas and the creativity, and I think it is safe to say all the participants want you to keep coming back. Hard not to take it personally though, I understand.
GRM has stated more than a few times that it is considering safety changes for next year's event. Personally I have faith that any changes will improve the event and be well thought out. Lots of good ideas in this thread, and probably lots of ideas this thread has not uncovered yet.
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