challenge question dealer licence car purchas.

Probibly going to upset some people here BUT. Cars purchased using a dealers licenses seem to me as a sale not being open to the public. There for there purchase price is un fairly low compared to what we that don't have access to a dealers license and there auctions. It is one thing to get a good deal on craigs list that anyone could have got but to get a 4000 ( or more ) retail car for 1000 at a dealer auction seems to me as a bit of a stretch of the spirit of the rules.

What say the hive.

The only way that using dealer's license cost is fair if the cost of the dealer's license and associated fees and overhead for getting the license are also calculated into the budget. By associated fees and overhead, I mean that if a dealer's license requires a retail footprint in the state where the car was bought, at least a month's rent, insurance, etc. on the facility should also be calculated into the budget.

(edit) Or, as flatlander937 said, a standard broker fee is added.

Or typical broker fee maybe?

I read it as it has to be a price that any other competitor could have purchased the vehicle for. IF that dealer is willing to sell to any person walking into the door with the same deal then A: Tell us who he is B: I'm all for it.

I have a feeling that isn't the case.

Depends on what you bought, Dean. I, too, have a dealer license, and I've learned that some cars - particularly sub-$1000 trash is no cheaper at auction than what you might find privately. Some examples are, old VW Cabrios, E36 4-door automatic s, old Volvos, Olds Alero 2drs, 4cyl Malibus and Mercedes 190E & early C220 models. That said, if you "stole" a Boxster S for $2500 (as I once did;dead battery + electric trunk release = they were too dumb to figure out how to jump it & they announced, "defective engine" FTW), I'm sure that might get you noticed

I think that I understand the question, but it is very possible that you are overthinking...

Years ago I tried to educate people on the tenets of fair market value and speak out against scope creep. I have no real desire to compete against anyone though so I gave up on all of that very quickly. The actual numbers for all builds are run on a sort of honor system that each individual needs to come to terms with themselves in order to have fun and remain friends.

The magazine does not want to stifle creativity / entertainment over dollars and cents and the 'spirit of the event' is an evolving concept that resides somewhere near the middle of a thousand diverse opinions.

I know it sounds lame, but I suggest that you worry only about your own conscience and do not lose any sleep over the shenanigans of others. We are (mostly) all friends here; it may be that the most satisfying course of action is simply to mercilessly tease your fellow challengers about perceived 'cheatiness' in their builds. Personally, I spectate for a few years in between actual entries to wash away any of the unpleasantness associated with the myriad issues that invariably arise...

TL/DR: I agree with you, but I am pretty sure that I can live with it.

Dealer auction not open to public, and dealers bid with intent to resell, keeping prices artificially low relative to what anyone else would pay, etc... I've seen so many past posts about this and the outcome is the same. Cars from dealer auctions are not budgeted at purchase price but at FMV, because most competitors can't walk in to a dealer auction and buy a car. "Hey guys look i showed up in a 2005 xxxx that my buddy the dealer snagged for me(while similar cars sell for 2x)" isn't something available to the public

Since I am probably the one this is regarding, let me throw out my two cents.

At an auction the prices are sometimes lower then the street, but I would argue that just as often cars trade for more then you can buy one for on the street. Its a matter of conveniece and supply. At the peak of running my car lot ten years ago I had to buy at least 10 cars a week to maintain my inventory, I didn't have time to scour the paper/ craigslist for a deal. The auction was easier.

Every auction I attend has at least 100 if not 400 people actively trying to buy cars. Many get paid by the car so a couple of hundred dollars on the purchase price is inconsequential. On a typical auction night I typically write down 20 to 30 cars and only buy one because the prices are too high on the others.

I can't tell you how many dealers go out of business in the first year from paying to much for cars, it's really quite astonishing.

The highest gross I have made over selling / flipping cars for 15 years have all been off of cars I "bought off the street".

As far as overhead costs are concerned I pay $150 a car to use my friends dealer license.

Let's use the lexus I recently bought as an example. Did I get a good deal on it? Hell yes, but I took a risk which is why I was able to buy it for that price.

Think about it I paid $1030 for a non running car, with no explanation as to why it didn't run. I had only about 5 minutes to look it over before the auction, no jump box and no tools. Also I could not talk to the previous owner for his account of why it didn't run. Carmax bought it off the street broken.

It could just as easily been a broken timing belt or a spun bearing and a bad transmission. Fortunately for me it was just a $115 starter.

The other 100 some odd dealers standing in the lane did not feel the risk was worth it and did not bid, despite the price and popularity of the model.

How many on here have bought a car for a steal that needed some minor little repair, I know I am not the only one. In fact there was a thread about it earlier this year if I remember correctly.

On a side note all of the posts about auctions are in the vane of look at this great deal I got, no one posts "Can you believe what that camry went for at the auction, I just sold one on auto trader for $1000 less".

I agree with the OP and flatlander's suggestion that a typical broker's fee should be added as an equalizer.

bgkast wrote: I agree with the OP and flatlander's suggestion that a typical broker's fee should be added as an equalizer.

Yup. I have approached several dealers about taking me to an auction over the years and they all came up with a similar amount they would charge me. I'm fine with auction cars purchased by dealers if the broker fee Joe Public would be charged is included. OTOH PimpM3 has made his services available to pretty much any GRMer and they are chasing a made up class that shouldn't mess with us so no big deal.

I think that TB hits the points pretty well.

I am unsure where to start so I will share with you my own personal Challenge experiences.
For a couple of years, I joined Aussie Steve as "crew" for his Fox body Mustang. I was really glad that he pushed me to go with him and left that year excited and glad I did it but with huge pangs of regret that I had not done it sooner. I was for certain going to join him for the following year (which I did) and would have continued to join him for subsequent years.

Lesson #1: The coverage the magazine gives to The Challenge is great but lets face it, it's about 20 pages. Hard as they try, the magazine does not really capture the "whole essence" of the event. What I learned...Go. Be part of it. It really should be seen as one of the Annual Gatherings or National Meetings of GRM'ers. The Rolex, The Mitty, The Ultimate Track Challenge being the others. I highly recommend attending one if you want to take your GRM to the next level.

With all intent of joining Aussie Steve agian, pimpm3 offered this '91 Infiniti Q45 up on the board. I had always wanted one and I saw the opportunity to campaign this myself at The Challenge.
I had three goals:
1. mid pack drag finish
2. mid pack autox finish
3. Win the Party
Over riding all these goals was the goal to "Be Memorable" or have an impact.

My long range goals were to compete with the car near stock in the first year and then build the car up further in the subsequent years by selling off the "bling" to raise budget.
My car developed an engine knock in the drags. I sold the car to another competitor for $750 and went home via rental car.
Though I failed at the goal of returning the following year, I COMPLETELY THINK I MET MY GOALS OTHERWISE.

Lesson #2: Someone else always seems to have more that you do.
Maybe one guy is in the composites business so he has the resources and the know how in these materials.
Maybe another team has the resources of an entire University behind them and what they do not have in cash, they have tool, fab facilities and a University owned Dually and trailer (meanwhile I sell my car because I do not have same tow rig at my resources.)
Maybe another owns a fleet business that results in him having lifts and lots of garage space.
Maybe another guy has mad-skills at fabricating. A level of which you feel you will never achieve in this lifetime.
If you see these as unfair advantages (which I do not), do not let these things stop you from carving out your own niche.

The Challenge can be cruel too. The guys you think will finish real high, don't always.
There are tons of unsung heros in the middle of the pack. A favorite of mine from years past was "The Little Lamb-orgini" A Ford Escort with two engines. To see it and hear it run was impressive. To talk to the owners, you find that they built the whole thing in one guys one car garage which had a stone floor and zero electricity! They drove the car the entire way to and from the event but, on the single day of competition, the car would not run right.

My personal cruelty was that I sold my car and returned without.
As soon as the drive back to Ohio I was searching for a replacement Q45.

I considered a number of Q45's. Here is a link from on that I considered:
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/challenge-rulebudget-clarification/103777/page1/

I also had considered other cars. Here is a Chrysler TC by Maserati:
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/off-topic-discussion/potential-for-the-challenge-car-185/101263/page1/

Then, I found the damn near identical Q45. I had contacted the seller and then damage hit. The whole story is here: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/i-need-help-with-a-salvage-auction-purchase-able-to-bid-q45-challenge-content-again/103085/page1/
Using the resources of GRM, I asked the board how I could get this car and sure enough, I now have it.
I suspect if I had asked how to build a fiberglass body part for this car, I would have gotten help with that too.

Realistically, I do not think I will finish as high this year as last (11th last year.) But, I have then fueled my own pleasure and personal excitement by creating my own class, The Aristocrates.
If y'all fell that I should have to run as exhibition only then so be it but I will still be there and the event will still be awesome.
I will still judge myself to deliver the best of my abilities (which aren't up to par with some of the abilities others possess.)

To say that The Challenge is a level playing field is a little naive but I would also never call it unlevel.

A real personal hero of mine is Jeff Lavoy, last years 10th place finisher. Not a wiz-bag car but for three years in a row now, Jeff has driven that car to and from the event. Michigan to Florida. He has made the trip successfully every time (a feat that I could not complete) AND, he finished top 10!

Dean, come play with us. You will have a great time!

What is the fair market value on a broken non running car?

My 2012 entry was a honda civic with an integra motor swapped in. I bought it not running for $500.00. I fixed the wiring issues for esentially free and sold it for $3000 after the challenge. I sold it for six times what I bought it for.

The GS400 that I bought would have sold for $3000 to $4000 at the auction in running condition. At the end of the day it was broken which is why I bought it for $1030.00. It's a 5000.00 car in running order so I paid more as a percentage (20%) then I did for the non running civic.

John got his current challenge q45 from me, through an auction. He reached out to the community to help his q45 rebirth happen and GRM made it happen. That's what is great about this community.

Ask him how much I charged him over the auction price?

Because I sold it to him without a fee of any kind does that make his car exempt as well?

I have a skill set that I have developed through buying and selling over 2000 cars over the past 15 years. How is that different from being a great welder, or fabricator, or engine builder. It is a skill set that I bring to the table just like all the other competitors at this event.

At the end of the day this is a fun event run to generate interesting magazine copy. I legitimatly bought my car for a challenge friendly price because it was BROKEN not because it was at an auction.

In reply to dean1484:

I agree with you.

However, I would approach it from a different perspective.

It is most certainly not about the actual price. Sometimes dealer auctions are low, sometimes high.

There is, however, the aspect of "professional fees".

Let's look ,for example, at the issue of dumpster diving. The general consensus has been that materials acquired through dumpster diving are free, but only if the dumpster is available to the public. Pulling things from a dumpster that is normally kept behind a locked gate (because your buddy gives you access) is not open access. A dumpster generally used for recycling is theft, a buddy saying, "I'll give you this small block, but I'll just set it in the dumpster, and then turn my back, so you don't have to include any price", is not OK. But a dumpster that is open to the general public is fair game.

I work in construction, and have access to huge quantities of used materials from dumpsters (we hauled 42 roll-offs from the job I am on). I use the materials from these dumpsters and call them "free", ONLY if they were open access. Many jobs have fences and signs that say no dumpster diving- I have never used materials from one of these (though I easily could have).

So, I would say the dealer license is a condition that grants certain people access, but not open to the public. It's generally not fair game.

However, pimp3 has changed that a bit (as Mr. Joshua has pointed out). He offered his license to everyone, it is therefore open access. HIS license is fair game, others are not.

Another way to view it is related to labor. Rules say labor you pay for must be included. The dealer has given professional labor to the project, his fees should be included. If he's your buddy, it's not free unless he offers it to all.

There are plenty of "grey" areas. For example, the rules clearly say that shipping counts toward parts prices. Not as clear if it counts toward shipping a vehicle (the rules say costs to "pick up your hooptie" are exempt. I assume this means I can catch a flight to CA, rent a truck, drive it back, and include zero for "picking it up", but paying someone to deliver it would be different)

Here's the bottom line... this ain't F1. GRM has made it clear they are looking to encourage a fun event and aren't going to stifle the fun over arguing about rules. Does that sound like it might be a little unfair? Perhaps.

Have some more shrimp dip.

There is a GRMer who has offered his services for vinyl cutting to anyone building a Challenge car for materials cost only.

Same thing.

I think the question isn't whether you took on risk or not, or how much you paid- more of a question of access to a deal that isn't available to everyone, like buying a car for a buck from a family member...

From past offers to other grmers it seems they do have access by just asking you. No complaints here.

I see the dealers license just like the ability to find a friend with a particular set of skills that won't charge you for their labor. Nobody has had the complete skill set on their own or even a team of people to consistently win the event.

With the picking up the car costs, I read it as no included cost no matter the method to get it to your house. I took some time looking at the world market for cars because of this rule. It's say you are only allowed to spend $2015... Nothing about euros.

I'm not aware of any $5000 car that could even potentially win without a lot of work. If anyone is able to live with themselves lying about budget expenses to win this event I really feel bad for them.

JohnRW1621 wrote: ....A real personal hero of mine is Jeff Lavoy, last years 10th place finisher. Not a wiz-bag car but for three years in a row now, Jeff has driven that car to and from the event. Michigan to Florida. He has made the trip successfully every time (a feat that I could not complete) AND, he finished top 10!

Wow, thanks for the compliment. Never thought I'd be called out in a good manner. Car has only been there 2 years though, '13 and '14. Won't be back this year as off season improvements have pushed it out of budget.

The concept behind the entire event is that you are building something anyone could repeat at the same price if they followed your recipe.

If the dealer fees are not included because of an "inside" deal or relationship, it can't be repeated by others.

What dealer fees are you referring to? I pay $150 to my friend to use his license. I will include that in the purchase price obviously.

I charged John the same fee on his Infiniti because that is what my buddy charges for doing paperwork etc...

It can be repeated just make a new friend or connection. The same argument can be made for using a friend's tools that not everyone is going to have access to use.

I still don't understand why you guys believe a dealer auction gets the best deals. Only thing it offers is access to more cars. Especially if we are referring to the GS400. Last year I purchased a running SC400, for $900 off of Craigslist.

WillrunifChased wrote: It can be repeated just make a new friend or connection. The same argument can be made for using a friend's tools that not everyone is going to have access to use.

I agree.

If someone has access to a machine shop and uses tools that I don't have "access" too without paying, that could be considered an inside deal as well. For example when I have the rotors on the Lexus turned prior to putting on new brake pads I will have to pay for that. If I had my own lathe that same task would be considered free.

In reply to pimpm3:

Tools are budget exempt so not the same. You paying $150 to use your buddies dealers license means you are including the price it costs you to get access to auctions so that is well within rules, intent, arguements, etc... Basically this whole thread is stating you should do what you already do.

In reply to MrJoshua:

Almost.

It is doing what he already does IF his buddy is willing to provide the same $150 fee to the general public.

If the rate for everyone else is $500, but his buddy cuts him a special deal, then no.