Challenge Rule-Change Proposal

grafmiata wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: I'd be ok with the change, but such seats will never be in my car. I have a much higher chance of getting in a major accident driving my Challenge car to work everyday than I do wrecking it at 100mph+ on the drag strip. I'm not interested in paying for a certified seat that will only be used once a year, and I'll take my chances. But I'm not against others doing it for no budget hit, though weight can be wildly improved. (I can lose over 80lbs with seats in my car.)

Yeah, I agree with you about commuting to work every day being ass-loads more dangerous than running your car in Gainesville. But for those willing to throw some extra $$ at their Challenge car for this, I think it should be allowed. Yes, there is some weight to be pulled out of a car by swapping to a shiny new race seat, but last I knew, there were no minimum weights to build your car to...

This is true... but the weights aren't small peanuts, let alone the performance advantage in autocross.

This becomes the argument of "Safety" vs. a "free" large performance advantage.

I know some of the competitors want the seat because their challenge cars see more than just The Challenge. Consider the opposite.

I thought about this more last night, and i feel like SVREX, dyintorace, Joey, and DrBoost have nailed it.

I've changed my mind. I'm against this. If you're worried about going so fast on the drag strip that safety is a big concern and you need seats, then you probably should have worked the cost of seats into the budget.

Or just don't go so fast.

I'll be trusting my factory seats at 120mph+ this year. But first and foremost, i'll be trusting that i didn't build a deathtrap that will struggle to stay pointing in the correct direction at 120mph+.

I bought 2 nice Kirkey race seats at the Perry Ga. Swap Meet this weekend for $15 and $35 for a grand total of $50. One is a dimpled hole lightweight. That is not much hit to a budget. Godzilla BOV $25. Paxton EFI regulator $10. NOS Koni coilovers $30. Had to sit in one of the Kirkey seats to get it all home. Set of wheels for the Vanette $60.00.

Swap Meets are where the savings are at. If you are not getting up on Saturday morning for Swap Meets you are missing out.

tuna55 wrote: To be fair, Lemons is a lot more dangerous than the Challenge. Also, that sum is a bit off. We've done it for less, much less, and the entry fees are a lot of that cost. Just the car came in around $1000 I think including all of the safety items the first time, more like $1500 the second time. You can't really get a real road racing cage in any car for less than $500, but you sure as heck need one to race like that.

Yeah, I understand the difference in risk when you're door-handle-to-door-handle. There are safety items that are necessary just to get on the track under those conditions.
and my $5,000 included everything to get on the track. The car, cage, seat, fire supression, clothes, etc. I was just trying to make a point that if we keep adding things to the exempt list it's going to be a $5,000 build. And yes, you can argue that the exemption isn't saying you HAVE to buy a seat, but it gives you a competitive edge, as does the stiffer chassis a cage gives. I started reading GRM because of the $1500 challenge. I figured anybody is good enough and crazy enough to build a race car for $1500 is my kind of people. If there was an asterisk clarifying that this $1500 car was actually $5,000 I'd have been much less interested.

All of my local swap meets is a bunch of overpriced garbage. I could use a swap meet hookup on some fuel stuff and all the gauges.

dyintorace wrote: address any issues with the car or add brakes, wheels, tires, seat, fire suppression, etc.

Just to go into this a little farther, although hopefully not far enough to get off topic.

Brakes we used were used calipers and good Hawk pads and good lines on home made brackets for adapting onto the stock spindle, maybe a total of $300 spent.

Wheels we used some Summit cheapies for maybe $120 total.

Tires we used an 'in' with a driver for like $75 total.

Seat was negotiated with the cage, I think the LTDs was $1100.

Fire suppression was a fire extinguisher and a fancy $15 bracket.

Swank Force One wrote: All of my local swap meets is a bunch of overpriced garbage. I could use a swap meet hookup on some fuel stuff and all the gauges.

Dude, all I see are the same idiotic flags and lawn decorations along with the same crappy chinese made trinkets you can get at the dollar store.

The exemptions have gone too far already. The challenge is to build a race car for $2k or less (that's why it's called a challenge). Period. Many people have done it in the past, and if you can't seem to accomplish that, it's your strategy that needs to be revised, not the rules.

Perry Swap Meet was 230 miles round trip for me, but the deals are a fraction of Ebay prices.

16vCorey wrote: The exemptions have gone too far already. The challenge is to build a race car for $2k or less (that's why it's called a challenge). Period. Many people have done it in the past, and if you can't seem to accomplish that, it's your strategy that needs to be revised, not the rules.

As someone who has not, but aspiring to, enter the challenge, I agree. take that for what it's worth.

tuna55 wrote:

16vCorey wrote: The exemptions have gone too far already. The challenge is to build a race car for $2k or less (that's why it's called a challenge). Period. Many people have done it in the past, and if you can't seem to accomplish that, it's your strategy that needs to be revised, not the rules.

As someone who has not, but aspiring to, enter the challenge, I agree. take that for what it's worth.

Ditto. I was trying to do the datsun replica on a challenge budget. It's not going to happen. I'm still going to finish the car and drive it up to see everybody. I'm not ashamed that I could not pull it off.....I just didn't have the skill set needed. I'm learning, though, and will have a car there eventually....just not this one. No new projects until I finish the datsun.

JoeyM wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

16vCorey wrote: The exemptions have gone too far already. The challenge is to build a race car for $2k or less (that's why it's called a challenge). Period. Many people have done it in the past, and if you can't seem to accomplish that, it's your strategy that needs to be revised, not the rules.

As someone who has not, but aspiring to, enter the challenge, I agree. take that for what it's worth.

Ditto. I was trying to do the datsun replica on a challenge budget. It's not going to happen. I'm still going to finish the car and drive it up to see everybody. I'm not ashamed that I could not pull it off.....I just didn't have the skill set needed. I'm learning, though, and will have a car there eventually....just not this one. No new projects until I finish the datsun.

Exhibition class!

16vCorey wrote: The exemptions have gone too far already. The challenge is to build a race car for $2k or less (that's why it's called a challenge). Period. Many people have done it in the past, and if you can't seem to accomplish that, it's your strategy that needs to be revised, not the rules.

berkeleyin' Ay!

drag racing and/or autocrossing with E36 M3ty brakes is retarded. [ninja edit] we shouldn't need a rule, or a budget incentive, to make sure our race car has good brakes. [/ninja edit] but the "oe replacement for free" rule makes buying a car with E36 M3ty brakes a budget advantage over buying a car with good brakes even though the end result is the same.

i guess i'm a challenge luddite, because i believe that if it's on the car as Challenged then it belongs in the budget, rollcages / seats / brakes / tires / etc, no exceptions. otherwise i'm going to come up with an argument that nitrous is a safety item. and knowing me, the argument will be compelling.

I sit in the cheap seats most of the time. I prefer it..

16vCorey wrote: The exemptions have gone too far already. The challenge is to build a race car for $2k or less (that's why it's called a challenge). Period. Many people have done it in the past, and if you can't seem to accomplish that, it's your strategy that needs to be revised, not the rules.

This, I mean for crying out loud, I should be under budget with hoho's.....

AngryCorvair wrote:

16vCorey wrote: The exemptions have gone too far already. The challenge is to build a race car for $2k or less (that's why it's called a challenge). Period. Many people have done it in the past, and if you can't seem to accomplish that, it's your strategy that needs to be revised, not the rules.

berkeleyin' Ay! drag racing and/or autocrossing with E36 M3ty brakes is retarded. [ninja edit] we shouldn't need a rule, or a budget incentive, to make sure our race car has good brakes. [/ninja edit] but the "oe replacement for free" rule makes buying a car with E36 M3ty brakes a budget advantage over buying a car with good brakes even though the end result is the same. i guess i'm a challenge luddite, because i believe that if it's on the car as Challenged then it belongs in the budget, rollcages / seats / brakes / tires / etc, no exceptions. otherwise i'm going to come up with an argument that nitrous is a safety item. and knowing me, the argument will be compelling.

+1

Good news!

We're going to discuss your suggestions for rule changes (this as well as any other proposals) on a regular basis for both UTCC and The Challenge. If you feel strongly about a particular rule or lack of one, start a message board thread, then email us about it.

In reply to Gasoline:

Quite the haul!!

Tom, this issue is a non-issue......if you are going fast enough in the 1/4 to require an SFI approved seat, thats fine. If you are nowhere close, it hits the budget. I see it as already falling under this cage and safety gear rule.

tuna55 wrote:

JoeyM wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

16vCorey wrote: The exemptions have gone too far already. The challenge is to build a race car for $2k or less (that's why it's called a challenge). Period. Many people have done it in the past, and if you can't seem to accomplish that, it's your strategy that needs to be revised, not the rules.

As someone who has not, but aspiring to, enter the challenge, I agree. take that for what it's worth.

Ditto. I was trying to do the datsun replica on a challenge budget. It's not going to happen. I'm still going to finish the car and drive it up to see everybody. I'm not ashamed that I could not pull it off.....I just didn't have the skill set needed. I'm learning, though, and will have a car there eventually....just not this one. No new projects until I finish the datsun.

Exhibition class!

Yup. If they GRM powers that be continue to have an exhibition class, that's where I'll register. Honestly, it's not much different than being within budget and entering in the locost class.....neither one is actually competing for anything.

Tom Suddard wrote: Good news! We're going to discuss your suggestions for rule changes (this as well as any other proposals) on a regular basis for both UTCC and The Challenge. If you feel strongly about a particular rule or lack of one, start a message board thread, then email us about it.

OK.

My suggestion is we dial back some of the exemptions and build $20XX cars.

I still believe in the brake rule, but would sacrifice it for the integrity of the event. It's really stupid to attempt to go 120 mph+ with bad brakes, and I think good brakes should be a REQUIREMENT (therefore possibly free OEM), but if it means we exempt everything that might be considered "safety" (like Angry's nitrous), it undermines the event.

Honestly, it goes for tires too. Perhaps more so, because there is no better performance advantage than new tires, regardless of the car. I really want to see perks for Kumho in appreciation, but not this one.

I'd like to see us build race cars for $20XX. It CAN be done. Not $40XX race cars with $1000 dollars in "free" tires and $1000 in other "free" safety gear.

But, you select the rules. I will play.

In reply to SVreX:

I agree with a lot of your points, as well as some brought up by others. I don't want rules-creep to destroy the spirit of the event.

But it seems like a few of the stalwarts of the Challenge feel that a "proper" seat can be an advantage in the auto-x... And I agree with them. But a five or six-point harness is also an advantage over this who don't have them, yet the harness is exempt.

I completely understand both sides of the argument. But the Kumho exemption last year is what is bringing this whole deal up.

Good tires are a DEFINITE performance item, yet they are "free", if you choose to spend the money.

I don't know...

The Kumhos are not a similar exemption as the safety gear. It was a response to what was seen as an abuse, and a nod to a faithful sponsor.

Which I support.

But they are similar in the fact that they contribute to "rules creep", and have collectively changed the nature of what the Challenge is supposed to be.

I always thought the ideas was to "build an entire race car for $20XX", rather than "amass the fastest pile of parts and a shell for $20XX, and then get budget exemptions to actually turn it into a race car" . A race car includes all required safety equipment, in properly functioning condition...It's a part of every other other REAL racing cars budget, why is it not here? I just don't see the need for any budget exemptions at all. In fact, knowing what kind of hardware is likely to show up, I wouldn't blink an eye if GRM went even 1-2 seconds slower on the drag ET's for requiring roll bars/cages. And if brakes are truly a concern, maybe the first "event" needs to be a 60-0 braking test to ensure everybody's brakes are up to at least some minimum standard. Or do it FSAE style, pull the ABS fuses on cars that have them, and require all cars to be able to lock all 4 tires simultaneously.

The challenge should not just be in budgeting for creating power/speed, it should be in budgeting for EVERYTHING required to build that "race car". Since the whole premise is based around a specifically set price ceiling, it seems to me that the spirit of the event would revolve around holding true to this one number above all else. I don't believe this sport derives a large portion of its income from spectators, so it should not matter if making the complete cost of the cars an honest $20XX makes them end up running a little slower.

OT

Why not make a Kuhmo "Spec Tire" that's not the V710? Basically you can scrounge tires for a budget hit, or buy say the XS (or the LE Sport, or the MX SRP or the SPT, GRM's call) for "free" This keeps the sponsor in and happy (and probably far better reflects the real tires cars like this get), and it allows people who want to budget for HoHos to do so, etc.

/OT

On topic, I'm not a fan of free seats. If your car goes that fast, build it ala Nashco, or buy it on budget. I don't think harnesses or brakes should be free, either. (I do see the cages though, that can stand).

Javelin wrote: OT Why not make a Kuhmo "Spec Tire" that's not the V710? Basically you can scrounge tires for a budget hit, or buy say the XS (or the LE Sport, or the MX SRP or the SPT, GRM's call) for "free" This keeps the sponsor in and happy (and probably far better reflects the real tires cars like this get), and it allows people who want to budget for HoHos to do so, etc.

Because Kumho doesn't make an ST-class tire worth a damn that fits many of the Challenge cars. If they made the XS in a tire size i could use (without going over budget on a new set of wheels that don't make me claw my eyes out on the 2x a day 365 days a year i see this car.) i'd buy them in a heartbeat. But they don't.

I pointed out last year that the trick to winning the challenge now is just buying the biggest set of Kumho V710s you can find and a used Nitrous kit.

THEN buy something with a V8 that you can make fit said 345/35-18 V710s and take a 150-200 shot.

Boom. Instant challenge win. "Build the car in a day."

Really the only tires people are going to buy with the current rule are the XS or the Victoracers.

I'm just looking at both sides. This rule doesn't affect me because there's no Kumho tires that make even the smallest piece of sense for me to buy, whether they're "free" or not, because in the end they still cost me real money, and they just don't work for me.