Challenge Supreme Court (Questions Answered Here!)

- If you capture data live to a megasquirt, its in the budget. 

- If you read data with a computer from the megasquirt in the pits, the megasquirt is in the budget, the computer is a tool. 

- If you capture data to a dongle and read it in the pits with a computer, the dongle is in the budget, the computer is a tool. 

- If the dongle is a wireless dongle connected to a computer live in the pits, its a fair loophole.  The dongle is in the budget, but the computer is not in the car, therefore it is not in the budget  

- If the computer is in the car on the track, its no longer a tool. It's in the budget. 

That's what I am understanding. 

I think the "Dongle Loophole" exists because Tom is dying to see someone actually accomplish a car linked wirelessly to the pits!  Lol! 

I think the question is more -If I am making an exhibition/fun run, and I have a computer in the car, do I have to include the computer in the budget? 

In reply to MrJoshua :

Since exhibition/ fun runs are after all official runs, I don't see why it would matter. 

Not on the dragstrip.

SVreX said:

Andrew:

I'm pretty sure Tom has already answered your question. On page 21 at 4:41, Tom made this post:

 

Tom Suddard said:

Nope. Dongles are totally a fair loophole. But by the time you figure out a wireless link that will work on the autocross course, you’re going to wish you’d just bought a $25 computer. 

Yes, that is a challenge. 

Why not just make all computers free? Because that would effectively make all aftermarket ECUs free, because any modern laptop can run an engine if you’re talented enough. If the laptop is in the car on track, it’s in budget. 

He said if the laptop is in the car on track, its in the budget. 

 

So no, it doesn't look like that is acceptable.  It's not a question of whether the laptop is actually in the car during an "official" run. It's whether you are using it to capture data on track for performance improvements. 

Its much too close to how a mega squirt is used. 

Paul,

No offense, but my question was directed to Tom.  I must have an official rule interpretation from GRM.   If I can't use my tools at a race 1000 miles from home I don't need to continue packing.  We don't need to perform at a subpar level because we can't make adjustments based on data from test runs.  The computer and tuner do not control anything in the car.  What's next, guys can't have Go-Pros because they're not in the budget?  They use them to refine performance.  If a computer has anything to do with the control or operation of the car it needs to be included....but data logging, sorry I can't agree.

The computers, tuners and other components were used in the past without penalty.  Exclusion would be a rule change 4 days before we leave.

In reply to wheels777 :

I am not a rules interpreter. Tom answered your question. 

Have a happy day. 

Woah, this escalated quickly. Sorry for kicking the hornet's nest with that laptop ruling–I was rushing and forgot about all the people who use the Challenge's early runs as a test and tune for later.

Ok, computers in cars. 

How about this: If a computer is in the car during competition, it and its cables/adapters are exempt from the budget provided they are easily removable, leaving every vehicle feature fully functional in their absence.

Does that rule work, everybody?

Revised to clarify wording. Now covers GoPros, tuning adapters, etc. 

And SVreX, I know you're passionate, and I appreciate the help answering questions here, but a lot of this is new territory and worthy of discussion.

In reply to Tom Suddard :

That works for me. Using gopros for data was something else I was going to bring up. Thanks for clarifying.

Tom Suddard said:

And SVreX, I know you're passionate, and I appreciate the help answering questions here, but a lot of this is new territory and worthy of discussion.

Completely agree. 

Not trying to interpret or stifle discussion, just trying to summarize what you had said (mostly for my own benefit). 

The new generation of engines people are starting to show up with use laptops as tools to change settings in the exact same way one would use a screwdriver and jet kit to change fueling, so it makes sense that it's a tool to me.  Thanks for the clarification Tom

A bit lighter question:

Do I have to FMV something I use on my Challenge car that someone sent me as part of the GRM Santa exchange?

WHAT IA AGE CUT OFF FOR OLD GUY CLASS?  ASKING FOR PETE.

I think the answer to the question is no, but just in case - Does a challenge car need a working horn? 

No horn necessary.

If you have grey hair you should be good to go in the old guy class.

Yes, gifts are FMV.

I'm 30 and have gray hair... Does that mean I'm in the old guy class? 

Legit question, this is as far as the drivers window goes down. It came with a door stop to hold it up, so that was my plan for drag racing. Is there an issue if I just leave the t-tops out for emergency egress during Auto-x. In the seat my helmet is below the sheet metal. 

In reply to FIMS :

technically NHRA rules require Windows to be rolled up

As far as the gray hair goes collars have to match the cuffs. But I ain't protesting you to find out

In reply to Ovid_and_Flem :

Up isn't the issue... I can make up happen. Down is the issue.

My car doesn't have windows....

My helmet is full face though. 

I have a few outstanding questions:

1. My car did not come with a timing cover. I purchased one so I could set the timing. If the timing cover stays on the car does it have to count towards budget? It is arguably not doing anything as it sits. If it does count, I may just take it off. I only takes about 5 minutes. Then it works as a tool. 

2. If it does count towards budget. I bought it as a outer and inner package, but only needed the outer. If this is the case, can I divide the cost by 2 and add just the outer?

3. The first page with "A single, large photo of the car (the more recent, the better)." Can there be text on the page too? Or strictly just the picture? I was going to put the team name, make model of the car, and the car's nickname on there unless that's an issue.

4. The Vehicle information page, how particular are you about this page in the build book? I typed it up in word and was considering taking some of the instructional text out to make room for more words. (As in, the fill out form completely text and the stuff at the bottom saying to feel free to write on the back.) All the information would be there, I am just trying to put ALL the paperwork into one word doc with the same font that I can print out and I'll also make it into a PDF available to download from my website. 

Yo Jimmy, And Tom  let's figure a number  OR  because I like outrunning Kids,just Throw it out,  I'm 66 and the Hair is still (Mostly) Brown.

This Could Change by Next Year tho..

  John Lennon Said not to trust anyone Over Thirty,         I agree.     so 30 could be a good number

FIMS said:

I'm 30 and have gray hair... Does that mean I'm in the old guy class? 

 

Legit question, this is as far as the drivers window goes down. It came with a door stop to hold it up, so that was my plan for drag racing. Is there an issue if I just leave the t-tops out for emergency egress during Auto-x. In the seat my helmet is below the sheet metal. 

Here you go, from the rulebook:

A: We realize that the rulebook has a few issues when it comes to this event. The following rules may be ignored if your car runs slower than 11.49 E.T.:

• Windows must be rolled up during drag runs (if you don't have windows, you'll be required to wear a full-face helmet).

See my answers in italics in the quoted text. 

AWSX1686 said:

I have a few outstanding questions:

1. My car did not come with a timing cover. I purchased one so I could set the timing. If the timing cover stays on the car does it have to count towards budget? It is arguably not doing anything as it sits. If it does count, I may just take it off. I only takes about 5 minutes. Then it works as a tool. 

Yes, it would have to count towards budget.

2. If it does count towards budget. I bought it as a outer and inner package, but only needed the outer. If this is the case, can I divide the cost by 2 and add just the outer?

Yes, but you'd have to FMV the selloff of the inner.

3. The first page with "A single, large photo of the car (the more recent, the better)." Can there be text on the page too? Or strictly just the picture? I was going to put the team name, make model of the car, and the car's nickname on there unless that's an issue.

That's fine.

4. The Vehicle information page, how particular are you about this page in the build book? I typed it up in word and was considering taking some of the instructional text out to make room for more words. (As in, the fill out form completely text and the stuff at the bottom saying to feel free to write on the back.) All the information would be there, I am just trying to put ALL the paperwork into one word doc with the same font that I can print out and I'll also make it into a PDF available to download from my website. 

We're flexible, just make it clear and easy for us.

GTXVette said:

 

Yo Jimmy, And Tom  let's figure a number  OR  because I like outrunning Kids,just Throw it out,  I'm 66 and the Hair is still (Mostly) Brown.

This Could Change by Next Year tho..

  John Lennon Said not to trust anyone Over Thirty,         I agree.     so 30 could be a good number

Dang, if I'd realized I qualified for the Old Guy Class by over a decade I'd have registered under that.

No, on second though, I still wouldn't have since I don't consider myself an 'old guy' just yet, despite what SWMBO may say...

Tom Suddard said:

See my answers in italics in the quoted text. 

AWSX1686 said:

I have a few outstanding questions:

1. My car did not come with a timing cover. I purchased one so I could set the timing. If the timing cover stays on the car does it have to count towards budget? It is arguably not doing anything as it sits. If it does count, I may just take it off. I only takes about 5 minutes. Then it works as a tool. 

Yes, it would have to count towards budget.

2. If it does count towards budget. I bought it as a outer and inner package, but only needed the outer. If this is the case, can I divide the cost by 2 and add just the outer?

Yes, but you'd have to FMV the selloff of the inner.

3. The first page with "A single, large photo of the car (the more recent, the better)." Can there be text on the page too? Or strictly just the picture? I was going to put the team name, make model of the car, and the car's nickname on there unless that's an issue.

That's fine.

4. The Vehicle information page, how particular are you about this page in the build book? I typed it up in word and was considering taking some of the instructional text out to make room for more words. (As in, the fill out form completely text and the stuff at the bottom saying to feel free to write on the back.) All the information would be there, I am just trying to put ALL the paperwork into one word doc with the same font that I can print out and I'll also make it into a PDF available to download from my website. 

We're flexible, just make it clear and easy for us.

 

Ok, thanks. I'll probably just take the timing cover off then. 

And I'll definitely make sure it's easy for you, I'll have a PDF version of it on my website too if you wanted digital.