Challenge Thoughts

Pro drivers are there to give all of the teams an even shot at a good posted time in the autox. We do get a lot of laps but each car requires a different driving style. We have to discover what it needs in the first few turns and then validate it during the rest of the run. The 2nd run is trying to manipulate all of the controls properly while watching revs, shifting, attempting to clip apexes in wildly different cars. The 3rd & 4th runs are usually the ones that we get to lay down a good run time with. With each run you get to see how much you can get away with pushing the envelope. Giving the pro one run and expecting them to. out perform a decent dritver that has a fair amount of seat time is probably not realistic. 2-3 runs Williams get you agood run, 4-5tha pro runs will get you a run that could equal the times

CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS... times that a good Autocrosser with reasonable seat time should be able to set. Just because we get a lot of laps does not equate to a lot of laps in THAT car. Not taking consecutive laps reduces our likely hood of getting a real good lap so having a car that is solid and reliable is good...having to step out of Andy's Bug after the brake issue and coming back to finish the runs probably cost a second in lap time in my opinion. A competive Autocrosser in a car that they have reasonable seat time in will most of the time beat tbe pro driver in the same car....would be a fun test tbough...

C-O-N-C-O-U-R-S, not C-O-N-C-O-U-R-S-E. Think of it like "adding lightness" to the word and drop the "E."

Sorry for the interruption. As you were.....

The expert drivers are there to make the event more about the car and less about the driver—but what happens is that we all want to win, so it's a scramble to figure out the fastest driver and stick them in the car.

So, here's a question—the pro drivers don't cost us a lot of money, yet they're pretty well regarded. Do we stop bringing them? let them only do three runs per car? Make it more luck of the draw and have a 'driver line' and a 'car line' and give everyone the luck of the draw?

The Alan preference that is happening now is actually feeding itself--Alan gets faster with more runs---and he's getting more runs because he's getting faster on the third, fourth and fifth runs---and getting about twice as many runs overall than the other pro drivers.

I'd rather only see 3 runs per car for the pros---I need to get it done in three at nats...that should be enough to get pretty quick here. If you can't, the car is hard to drive and that should effect the times.

With just 45 cars, I can give 5 or maybe even 6 runs for each team. But once you hit 55 or more cars, 5 runs is pushing it. 6 runs with 3 from the expert would be my first choice...

Just random thoughts at 6:50 am before the kiddos are awake.

In reply to Per Schroeder:

All I have to say is...........................................wow-your kids actually sleep past 6 am? I am jealous.

Ha, Stig didn't nap yesterday, was bugE36 M3 crazy last night, and then up at 6:59....Emma has already been up twice since midnight....&@$&);: chest cold. I am definitely on extra kid duty, Kim had to take care of both over the weekend, including a trip to the clinic for a 103 fever. Thankfully, were on the upswing now.

1) Bring the pro drivers there worth there weight in gold to car builders.I like the 4 runs with a pro and 1 with driver.The pro needs time to get use to each car.Per you get 3 laps at the NAT's because you know your car but not the course.The pros need time to feel safe in the car,so I'm all for more laps with the pros. 2) No lines no luck of the draw.I talk to several drivers and picked the pro I felt comfortable driving my car.Car builders should get to pick the driver as in all racing venues.

As far as the pro driver goes, it is a special talent that can whip out a fast run in an unfamiliar car in very few runs. Some pros have always been better at it than others. An example was about 4 years ago when we brought an FC with the power steering removed. The first pro we gave the car to took two runs, turned in fairly slow times, and complained about the steering effort. We gave the car to Ian and he knocked out an 8th place run in his first effort. With such a spectacular difference we have become one of those teams who doesn't really want to experiment with unknown pro drivers. It paid off this year with Alan putting our car in fifth in the autocross. I would vote for at least 4 runs with the pro due to his unfamiliarity with the car and possibly a fifth if he cones the first 4.

In reply to Per Schroeder:

Ok, now that sounds more like normal child rearing.

modernbeat wrote:

DrBoost wrote: To see a guy hammer out a fender on a tree in his backyard, that's grassroots.

And while the flares on the Vorshlag car weren't hammered out on a tree, they were hand hammered out on a wooden buck made in Terry's garage.

YEAH BABY! That's what I'm talking about.

Just wanted to make sure that my points about the concours is NOT to eliminate the very well fabricated cars, but just to understand what the points are being awarded for.

Along that note, remember besides making good print, another point of the challenge is that you can go racing on the cheap. As far as I know, very few of the engine swap cars are eligible for anything outsided of a Modifided class, so to side the concours to a car that clearly can't be raced competetively anywhere else is kind of funny. I know it makes interesting articles and whatnot, but if someone is going to spend the time making a cool car, wouldn't it be nice to be able to go racing with it? Anyway, make good concours scores reachable to all. Maybe reward the great points to the well fabricated. Or, much more valuable, give a whole lot of print to the cars you find most interesting to the reader.

Stick with the pros. I really don't see the issue of giving them 4 runs for this event- at the Nationals, most drivers have put in a whole lot of runs, so the 3 they get are more about the course/conditions than the car. It takes a few runs to learn a car. If how the event is run slows things down- maybe review that (hot laps can really speed things up if there are a ton of driver swaps required, AND hot laps allows the pros to reall focus on a particular car for long enough to really display how good that car is).

One more note about the road course- it's not as if there are no alternatives for cheap track racing- say Lemons and Chumpcar.

What's interesting- while many of the posts can sound like sour grapes, the essense of the suggestions are tweaks over major rennovations. Important tweaks, no doubt. Some tweaks that get brought up every year. But it's easy to see that nobody is saying that this is a bad event, and most of what is done is right on what competitors want to do. Cudos to GRM.

alfadriver wrote: Cudos to GRM.

^^+ eleventy three

In reply to Per Schroeder:

I am all for the pros. If someone wants the pro to take all 4-5 runs in there car it doesn't bother me in the least. I don't think they or their car should be penalized because they cannot drive as well. The competition should primarily be about the car.

I do however as previously stated think that the pros have a distinct advantage of knowing the course and just trying to learn the car not both.

I think the builder driving has at disadvantage from not knowing the course. I think it would be a fair statement to say that roughly 75% of the entrys had not been autocrossed in challenge form prior to the event so they are trying to learn the car as well. I know I was trying to learn our car at least until the fourth run.

I doubt I would ever really use a pro driver for a couple reasons. Too much pride. I believe I can run close to equal times. Our cars seem to have quite a few quirks so I don't want to be upset at someone for not overcoming them or coning a run. Lastly but most important because driving is most of the fun of the event for me.

I believe the builders driving should be encouraged. All I really think could be added is some type of throwout run, practice run, or parade lap run for the non pros.

I agree with Greg about practice.Some cars come untested and need a lap to insure the car is going to function properly for the driver weather it be a pro or builder/driver.

Fully agree with Greg

In relation to the post above mine. Are untimed laps still allowed for the team? I brought my car completely untested and wanted to run it through the cones myself once or twice before handing it to someone else for safety reasons.

Maybe the answer is 1 hour of un-counted runs, then you get 4 runs that count.

Per

i like that.

I like the Pro or self drive option and I think each team should get to choose. I will say that there were a lot of off course DNFs by the owner/drivers. In some cases several in a row just because of not being familiar with the route of the course. Walking it is one thing, driving it at speed is another. There was a lot of dead time on the auto-x course early while the concours judging was going on. Maybe there could be practice runs as someone suggested or maybe low speed "parade" laps just to learn the circuit.

Since there is enough time to run 5-6 times with the current field.... Have the first hour to hour and a half open to just cars that are not going to use a pro driver at all (posted/noted with no changing). Then when the real times start, everybody gets 4 runs including the pro's. If the non pro's get the practice (track learning) time, then we are on a closer to equal curve with the pros, so give the pro's 4 runs. Simple math with the time, and fair track exposure for all.

I think I'm going to go with 1/2 hour of course walking and then an hour of practice.

Crap, by the time I wrote it Per kind of said it... I just said it better

The hour of practice should be only for those that commit to driving all 4 runs later (and noted at T&S). No pro cars allowed...

Walk then practice. Good call.

darkbuddha wrote: Man, I can't help thinking that from the comments in this thread that a lot of folks are simply way under-informed (ignorant) of the kind of cars and they way they're built in SCCA style rally-x. Not fun to drive on the street?!?!!! Really? I know several serious stage rally folks, and those cars are 10 times as serious as the typical average SCCA rally-x entry, and those damn cars can be downright awesome on the street. Hell, ever heard of tarmac rally? Well, they're the same cars that run gravel rally with some different setup choices. Not only that, but they are required to be street legal for transit stages to meet sanctioning body rules. Besides, many (most?) SCCA rally-x cars are in fact street cars. Sure, some may strap on mud flaps, dial up the coilovers, and maybe run rally tires, or snow tires if you're broke (though many run good ol' fashioned all-seasons too). And on top of that, SCCA rally-x classification rules are pretty damn simple compared to the auto-x classification rules. Like 2wd, modified 2wd, 4wd, and modified 4wd; though there are discussions of separating the 2wd classes into FWD and RWD. Ooooo.... how complicated. (that's sarcasm BTW). My point is, don't go getting all wacky about the rally-x idea just because it means leaving the road more travelled. But as I said, I've already withdrawn my rally-x suggestion.

Well yeah... but Stage Rally =! RallyX. I'd rather drive the 10x as serious car on the street, because that's how i roll.

I was merely saying that things i find to be fun on the street, would be absolutely horrible in any sort of dirt or gravel. And since i'm not the sort of guy to build something for one event, then get rid of it, i'd be stuck with it before and after the event for a period of time, and i have no interest in it.

Would i love to try RallyX? Does it interest me? Absolutely. But that'll happen when i have room for a dedicated car for such events. That sort of prep is going nowhere near my DD.

If you were referring to me (i think you were), don't take me as bagging RallyX, just merely that how i would rather modify my DD is the exact opposite of what you'd want for RallyX. Example: My DD/Challenge build has been LOWERED 4.5-5". I high-side in speedbumps. I don't think that's real great for RallyCross.