Challenge Thoughts

Mike---hard to police. Better to just say an hour of practice

Per Schroeder wrote: The expert drivers are there to make the event more about the car and less about the driver So, here's a question—the pro drivers don't cost us a lot of money, yet they're pretty well regarded. Do we stop bringing them? let them only do three runs per car? Make it more luck of the draw and have a 'driver line' and a 'car line' and give everyone the luck of the draw?

I would stop bringing them. If it was really about the car, and not the driver, where are the pros for the drag event? I don't see how it's all about the car. It's all about the team. The team creates the car, and the teams should run the car, IMO.

alfadriver wrote: Along that note, remember besides making good print, another point of the challenge is that you can go racing on the cheap. As far as I know, very few of the engine swap cars are eligible for anything outsided of a Modifided class, so to side the concours to a car that clearly can't be raced competetively anywhere else is kind of funny. I know it makes interesting articles and whatnot, but if someone is going to spend the time making a cool car, wouldn't it be nice to be able to go racing with it? Anyway, make good concours scores reachable to all. Maybe reward the great points to the well fabricated. Or, much more valuable, give a whole lot of print to the cars you find most interesting to the reader.

This was my point with allowing cars preped to the full extent of Dmod, Emod, or Prepared SCCA classing. In this way people building crazy cars would be able to build a car that has the ability to actually be raced competitively after the challenge. I'm fine with these cars having to run a modified "locost" class but the overall win should go to the fastest <$2012 car. That may be a car out of the "locost" class that may be a Normal challenger. I don't believe any of the exhibition class cars have put up times/scores that would result in the overall win yet.

As to the DOT vs Non DOT slicks the SCCA required an increase in safety gear for cars running Non DOT slicks. These include mandatory roll bars, Driveshaft hoops and I believe SFI belhousings. I think it makes sense to draw the line for Autox at DOT slicks. I would support street tires, however the non-availability of 13" and limited availability of 14" tires as well as the limited used market makes this a dificult pill to swallow.

I'm glad that the powers that be are allowing this dicsuccion to occur, and hope that it remains civil

Zomby woof wrote:

Per Schroeder wrote: The expert drivers are there to make the event more about the car and less about the driver So, here's a question—the pro drivers don't cost us a lot of money, yet they're pretty well regarded. Do we stop bringing them? let them only do three runs per car? Make it more luck of the draw and have a 'driver line' and a 'car line' and give everyone the luck of the draw?

I would stop bringing them. If it was really about the car, and not the driver, where are the pros for the drag event? I don't see how it's all about the car. It's all about the team. The team creates the car, and the teams should run the car, IMO.

I don't think that works. Some teams have pro drivers on their team (Vorshlag this year, Danny Popp on the sucker 'vette team). We chose to have a pro driver take the runs in our car because our two man team has no pro driver amongst our ranks. If the pro drivers aren't available, some teams will "add" pro drivers as an unfair advantage.

Some teams have professional mechanics, machinists, etc. on their team. See where I'm going with this?

Some people win because they're better at certain things. That's how racing works. I like it that way.

I really think rule wise, it's as good as it's going to get. It sounds like a lot of people want to change the rules to fit their car rather than build their car to fit the challenge.

I like the hour of auto-x practice idea and some structure to the concourse. My only change to the event would be a little more love for the drag guys since that's what I built my car for and didn't get to do it.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: If you were referring to me (i think you were), don't take me as bagging RallyX, just merely that how i would rather modify my DD is the exact opposite of what you'd want for RallyX. Example: My DD/Challenge build has been LOWERED 4.5-5". I high-side in speedbumps. I don't think that's real great for RallyCross.

Well yeah... a car clearly set up for only auto-x or road course work is probably going to have a less than ideal setup for rally-x. I'm assuming that you're ride height is probably 2-3 inches (which is probably not street-able in most places that I've lived), so yeah, you'd need a bit more to be comfortable, but maybe not as much as you'd think. Assuming the course is laid out according to SCCA's own rallycross guidelines, mildly lowered cars should be able to negotiate the course without issue. But I see your point about not being able to have a dedicated single use vehicle. I'm in a similar situation... my daily driver was my auto-x car. It was also my rally-x car as well. I simply built it so that it could handle all of it. Maybe I'm not super competitive in any of the classes I participate in (hell, I often run auto-x in a "time only" class if they have one), but I don't do it for the points, I do it for the fun. I suppose that's why I just don't "get it" a lot of the time. But I'm okay with that.

darkbuddha wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: If you were referring to me (i think you were), don't take me as bagging RallyX, just merely that how i would rather modify my DD is the exact opposite of what you'd want for RallyX. Example: My DD/Challenge build has been LOWERED 4.5-5". I high-side in speedbumps. I don't think that's real great for RallyCross.

Well yeah... a car clearly set up for only auto-x or road course work is probably going to have a less than ideal setup for rally-x. I'm assuming that you're ride height is probably 2-3 inches (which is probably not street-able in most places that I've lived), so yeah, you'd need a bit more to be comfortable, but maybe not as much as you'd think. Assuming the course is laid out according to SCCA's own rallycross guidelines, mildly lowered cars should be able to negotiate the course without issue. But I see your point about not being able to have a dedicated single use vehicle. I'm in a similar situation... my daily driver was my auto-x car. It was also my rally-x car as well. I simply built it so that it could handle all of it. Maybe I'm not super competitive in any of the classes I participate in (hell, I often run auto-x in a "time only" class if they have one), but I don't do it for the points, I do it for the fun. I suppose that's why I just don't "get it" a lot of the time. But I'm okay with that.

My problem is that i already have a couple dedicated single use vehicles. I have 5 cars, and live in an apartment, and i rent one garage space. It's all bad.

Somewhere, a compromise was made and Challenge car became DD, and that's probably the way it'll be for a long time. However, because it's a DD first and foremost, i have to focus on the things that make the car somewhat enjoyable to drive day in day out, and a lot of compromises are made.

I do autox for points, just not with this car. This car is for fun DD duties, and to be used as an excuse to go to the Challenge and finish a solid mid-pack if i'm lucky.

Just wanted to chime in as another person who loves the job GRM does with this. Obviously Im on the "freak car" builder side of the fence but I can appreciate that there is room for all types.

I say keep the pro drivers, I'm a builder not a driver. I know not everyone feels it's a builders competition but let's leave room for the builders and the drivers here. Sure you can make your team up of both and be covered but what about those one man teams or family teams? I was lucky to have good drivers on my team in $2010, but I may come back with a solo effort in the future and would appreciate having the drivers on hand to make the car shine.

Rally-x. Not my cup of tea and I think its been covered that there just isn't a venue for it. But...if it was to be done why not (logistical nightmare aside) offer competitors to enter either autox or rallyx. Score them both the same way but a team can only run in one or the other. Then just merge those scores into an overall score for that portion of the event. Seems to let everyone have what they want, except the staff who would want events to be easier to run :)

Just keep doing what you are doing guys, I love the event, I love the magazine and I will be back, either with Wartburg 2.0 as an exhibition car or one of the other oddball ideas I have baking in the back of my brain.

nocones wrote: As to the DOT vs Non DOT slicks the SCCA required an increase in safety gear for cars running Non DOT slicks. These include mandatory roll bars, Driveshaft hoops and I believe SFI belhousings. I think it makes sense to draw the line for Autox at DOT slicks. I would support street tires, however the non-availability of 13" and limited availability of 14" tires as well as the limited used market makes this a dificult pill to swallow.

That's absolutely untrue.

Only "open" cars require a rollbar with slicks in SCCA autocross.

The bellhousing requirement only applies if the flywheel is in the same plane as your body parts.

The driveshaft hoops only apply to D and E Mod and not any of the Prepared class cars. There is an exception for D and E Mod cars to not run the scatter shield and hoops if they use DOT approved tires.

Please don't be a scaremonger when it comes to rules. It took me 20 seconds to verify these rules before I replied.

We chose to keep it DOT for the autocross--as lots of these cars are pretty odd/tippy and some of the builders aren't used to how quickly things can go tango-uniform when you have too much grip on an undeveloped chassis.

Per

Per Schroeder wrote: I think I'm going to go with 1/2 hour of course walking and then an hour of practice.

yes please

and I think the pros can use the extra seat time in a non challenge car like the mustangs this year, which makes it fun to see that a mid engines buick powered truck can outrun a boss 302

also, I believe everyone wants Alan because he's the one that hangs out with us and seems to be one of us dorks

fastclown wrote: The hour of practice should be only for those that commit to driving all 4 runs later (and noted at T&S). No pro cars allowed...

I know Per has pretty much already made a ruling on this, but just in case I wanted to point out one issue here. If you do it that way, there is no way for a team to do a shake down run on the car before having to use a timed pro lap. maybe GRM wants that to encourage having the car as sorted prior to the event as possible, but I would think it's fair that even a sorted car, driven to the event should get a chance to check for any necessary tweaking before having timed runs by a pro.

two last thoughts on rally-x (yeah, not happening, I know):

1) I have very limited space and as such can only use one vehicle at a time for all automotive hobbies. this necessitates building one that is robust and versatile enough to handle whatever I want to do with no more than whatever setup changes can be easily performed the weekend or weeknight before an event. this seems very grm challenge to me. An easy answer could be bringing documentation of using it at a rally-x prior to the challenge and showing it during concours. I have to think the judges would find that interesting and score accordingly.

2) if enough people actually seriously wanted to do one pitting their challenge cars against each other, maybe something SS style on Thursday or Sunday for E36 M3s'n'giggles. This would probably (definitely) be too much for the GRM staff to handle, but if enough challengers and a local organizer stepped up to handle it, maybe it could actually happen. Sort of a concurrent and affiliated but separate event.

To GRM: Thanks for committing to keep the challenge alive and thriving for more years to come

bluej wrote:

fastclown wrote: The hour of practice should be only for those that commit to driving all 4 runs later (and noted at T&S). No pro cars allowed...

I know Per has pretty much already made a ruling on this, but just in case I wanted to point out one issue here. If you do it that way, there is no way for a team to do a shake down run on the car before having to use a timed pro lap. maybe GRM wants that to encourage having the car as sorted prior to the event as possible, but I would think it's fair that even a sorted car, driven to the event should get a chance to check for any necessary tweaking before having timed runs by a pro.

LOL!!!!

Maybe, just maybe the car should be finished prior to the Challenge, so that it can be debugged. One of the best parts about a fall challenge is that you have the summer season to autocross the car. But that rarely seems to happen.

(but I get your point, regardless...)

alfadriver wrote: Maybe, just *maybe* the car should be finished prior to the Challenge, so that it can be debugged.

Yeah, that's what everyone keeps telling us, I dunno why.

unevolved wrote: Regarding the whole "shops vs. amateurs vs. colleges" argument... In the past we've had people complain that we've got access to more resources than the "average" entrant. While that may be true, we certainly have more problems to contend with and had to fight every step of the way to earn our 28th place this year. I think that should illustrate rather well that there's no true trump card, at least for colleges.

I also agree with unevolved on this point. While the college teams may have access to better resources we also have to put up with a lot more than the average challenge team. Not only do we have the challenge car to worry about, but also a full course load of Engineering coursework (which in itself is demanding) and jobs as well. In addition, our sole existence as an automotive engineering club at Georgia Tech relies on the fact that we actually do engineering. Before we can send any car out to the challenge, or even make any major design decision, we have to prove to the faculty that we are making thorough engineering analysis and that we are actually building a competitive car. On top of that our knowledge base and workforce is currently changing. Unlike other challenge teams that have years of automotive experience, our best experience leaves every four years and a huge challenge as a college team is to train the future generation of members that have no experience.

Having said that I would really love a college class, especially with stricter judging towards the design and engineering aspects of the car (maybe get an engineer to volunteer for judging?). This could help attract other engineering schools that have fsae teams, or are considering cheaper alternatives to fsae.

n addition, our sole existence as an automotive engineering club at Georgia Tech relies on the fact that we actually do engineering. Before we can send any car out to the challenge, or even make any major design decision, we have to prove to the faculty that we are making thorough engineering analysis and that we are actually building a competitive car.

That sounds a lot easier than trying to convince your wife that it's a good idea to spend the whole year building a car that will be used for one weekend of partying and drinking with like minded motorheads, a two day drive away

Per Schroeder wrote: I think I'm going to go with 1/2 hour of course walking and then an hour of practice.

I like this

I would excuse college team entries that are made up of 100% student members from any handicapping. They are "amateurs" along the same lines as college sports team members are.

As for the use of pro drivers, as long as they are universally available for all teams to use, I don't see an issue, as long as teams have the option of using them or not. I would say this... if a team decides to use a pro driver, consider limiting the number of auto-x runs to just 3 (or 4) and allow any team not using a pro driver 5 (or 6) runs. This should help minimize the impact of greater course familiarity the pros may have.

One quick thought regarding pro drivers. It might be handy for there to be a board somewhere listing what vehicles they have extensive auto-x experience with. That might help someone (like me) who is unfamiliar with their exploits figure out which couple of drivers would be most suited for whatever heap I bring, and might cut down on everyone trying to get one driver (Alan) in their car.

I'm more liking the idea of having a line for cars that need a driver, and then having a place for the drivers to stand. You don't pick the driver---you get the luck of the draw as to who is standing there. If I could get them all to wear tinted visors, ala TG's Stig, it would work better.

Essentially, we need to build a "Stig Dispenser"

Per

Per Schroeder wrote: I'm more liking the idea of having a line for cars that need a driver, and then having a place for the drivers to stand. You don't pick the driver---you get the luck of the draw as to who is standing there. If I could get them all to wear tinted visors, ala TG's Stig, it would work better. Essentially, we need to build a "Stig Dispenser" Per

Could this be modified so that you atleast get stig #x for every time you use a pro? Like pull a # from a hat first time out?

Per Schroeder wrote: I'm more liking the idea of having a line for cars that need a driver, and then having a place for the drivers to stand. You don't pick the driver---you get the luck of the draw as to who is standing there. If I could get them all to wear tinted visors, ala TG's Stig, it would work better. Essentially, we need to build a "Stig Dispenser" Per

Sounds hot.

bluej wrote:

Per Schroeder wrote: I'm more liking the idea of having a line for cars that need a driver, and then having a place for the drivers to stand. You don't pick the driver---you get the luck of the draw as to who is standing there. If I could get them all to wear tinted visors, ala TG's Stig, it would work better. Essentially, we need to build a "Stig Dispenser" Per

Could this be modified so that you atleast get stig #x for every time you use a pro? Like pull a # from a hat first time out?

Hot laps.

in '06 i ran my nearly-stock probe GT. since Danny Shields won many national events with his underskin-twin MX6, i thought it would be great to get him in the car. alas, he had back surgery shortly before the challenge and wasn't driving. so i had a non-Alan pro take 3 runs before having a staffer make a run. on my last run, someone pointed to Alan and said "get that guy to drive it".

on his only run in the car, he went 0.8 seconds faster than the non-Alan pro, and moved me up several places on the board.

later that night, while having a beer with Alan, i asked if that was a max-effort run, and he said "nah, there was another half-second out there. i never go 100% on my first run in a car."

so if the stig dispenser is loaded with Alans, i can dig it. otherwise, i'll just wait my turn.