Challenge Thoughts

Still, if the city got behind a parade, it could be done, as for legality, my point was about complying with the rules of the event

Per Schroeder wrote: I'm noodling around some ideas for the next Challenge. Here are some thoughts: 1) allowing only real street tires for the autocross portion of the event next year. Drag tires will still be allowed for the drags. Treadwear ratings of greater than 140. Other than that, no real exclusions. 2) Requiring fire extinguishers to be installed and within reach of the driver. Free for the budget, but you still need to buy one. real 5BC extinguishers are about $50. What do you guys think? This isn't official--just some thoughts I had on the drive home.

I agree, all would be more equal on tires

Per Schroeder wrote: The NHRA Tech, in the past, was pretty stout--they were even checking rollbar height last year. Interesting news. I'll make sure we have one of us down there next year. I'm making wheel studs/bolts free in the budget next year....and will consider your idea as well.

Solo Tech??

aussiesmg wrote: Still, if the city got behind a parade, it could be done, as for legality, my point was about complying with the rules of the event

If Lemons can handle a parade, certainly you guys can. Those cars aren't legal for anything.

Per Schroeder wrote: We may also limit the expert drivers to 3 runs in any one car....

More Drivers to where if you wait later in the day your Pro Driver has the course down real good. More drivers could keep it to only so many cars driven per driver. Pull from a hat who you get. That could get rid of the Allen line.

If the cars are required to be street registered, that will forbid us from competing.

As a student organization, we can't register cars. If it's a running, titled, car owned by the school, it opens up a can of safety inspections, maintenance that must be performed by the school (laughable on a Challenge car), and more paperwork than you can imagine. The only way we are able to compete is because our cars aren't registered or titled, and they're under $5,000 purchase price, which keeps them off all the right radars.

If it's a parade on closed roads, sure, that's fine. We can make our cars street legal. But from a legal perspective, our cars can never be street legal.

bluej wrote: I don't see how anyone could possibly argue with the fire extinguisher. On tires- whats the current breakdown look like over the past couple challenges? Why the change? how bout a trophy for highest ST finisher (used both ax and drag)? I know This has been discussed ad-naseum but what about a supplementary rally-x? Isn't there a big field next to the site? Something like a mini-course thats only worth 2-5 bonus pts. On the dynamic scale to reward vehicle flexibility. I know that adds a logarithmic level of complexity to organizing and staffing but maybe it would be do-able w/ the help of a local rally-x group like Martin helps w/ the ax. Sorry, Per, I know this isn't what you asked for.

I am the Rally Chair for CFR and Safety Steward, Im in!

bigwrench1 wrote:

Per Schroeder wrote: I'm noodling around some ideas for the next Challenge. Here are some thoughts: 1) allowing only real street tires for the autocross portion of the event next year. Drag tires will still be allowed for the drags. Treadwear ratings of greater than 140. Other than that, no real exclusions. 2) Requiring fire extinguishers to be installed and within reach of the driver. Free for the budget, but you still need to buy one. real 5BC extinguishers are about $50. What do you guys think? This isn't official--just some thoughts I had on the drive home.

I agree, all would be more equal on tires

And equal shocks/struts/springs, and equal engines, and equal transmissions, and equal drag slicks, and everyone gets nitrous, etc....if you set it up to be equal, it becomes a spec series.

I think all allowances should be scrapped and make it a build what you can and make it race legal for $200x and have a real tech inspection to make sure that unsafe cars are not allowed to participate. Otherwise, this becomes more and more of an expensive event since to be competitive you have to get the best of every allowance you can. It's already getting a bit far from the $2000 range when you factor in safety belts, brake parts, brake lines, roll bars, now wheel studs, etc. Make it a real $2k event again.

Just my opinion.

David S. Wallens wrote: I see the point about being built to a class, but what about those who race with other clubs? The Martin Sports Car Club, our other local group, has several Street Mod classes that allow just about anything. Personally, I like to see the creativity and would rather not pigeon-hole the participants. I do like the suggestion about a penalty for those who pitch a wheel. That could get very, very ugly. How about if you lose a wheel you're disqualified? That would probably get more people torquing lug nuts between runs.

How about a short Solo tips as part of drivers meeting. Some people may not have any idea about checking lugs. Also lugs and no bolts!

Per Schroeder wrote: Challenger's choice is often not much more than who has more than 1 vote.

Wow...that sucks. I was really digging the fact that we landed with that one this year.

Pat wrote: And equal shocks/struts/springs, and equal engines, and equal transmissions, and equal drag slicks, and everyone gets nitrous, etc....if you set it up to be equal, it becomes a spec series. I think all allowances should be scrapped and make it a build what you can and make it race legal for $200x and have a real tech inspection to make sure that unsafe cars are not allowed to participate. Otherwise, this becomes more and more of an expensive event since to be competitive you have to get the best of every allowance you can. It's already getting a bit far from the $2000 range when you factor in safety belts, brake parts, brake lines, roll bars, now wheel studs, etc. Make it a real $2k event again. Just my opinion.

I think some concessions for actual safety gear (seats, harnesses, fire systems) should be made, but any derived safety gear (such as brake parts, roll bars, cages, wheel lugs/studs) should be mandated and reinforced with stiff penalties (disqualification) for failures.

Street legal is reall subjective given that I drove the monster eg civic legally quite a bit last week - must be a canadian thing.

Tires with a 140 tread wear rating kinda throws a wrench in mine and anyone else with 13" tires plans. I use mine for lowering gearing and availability. I run RS3's on the stang an neova's on the 997s - but there aren't many (any?) 13" non R's that are wide, sticky and available.

The nice thing about a non engineered car is that it opens it up to a wider audience. I don't have immediate access to the tools the engineered guys have. I rely on this forum and others to build a compitent car that anyone car replicate cheaply. That being said over the years we have seen engineered cars like the cheaperral vette do really well and some others not so much. Engineered doesn't mean fast - sometimes just over thought. And isn't this contest about performance?

Fire extinguisher seems good

J.McCreery - 1 guy from Canada Many toys

If we auto-Xer’s have to run on non-sticky street tires, then it is only fair to make the drag racers run on the same non-sticky street tires otherwise your playing favorites. Didn’t this magazine start for the sport of auto-Xing? So why pamper drag racers.

Why not make it a spec tire for everyone in whatever size they want. This should be a Kumho tire of course. There could be an arrangement with Kumho that each competitor could buy a set of tires at cost.

This way everyone is running what we are forced to advertize and Kumho gets better or at least truthful advertizing.

Per Schroeder wrote: As far as I know, we don't have any good rallycross sites within the gainesville/surrounding area. While ERS is cool, it's not a true rallycross site, as it's considerably faster than an SCCA event.

I suspect a decent rally-x site could be found, but logistics might make it more challenging to do than the current format. It's gotta be super convenient and super manageable to have all the events in one location.

Further--that's not really the direction we've gone with the event.

Uh huh. But that's the thing that could make substituting rally-x a good thing. It could help turn more people on to the fun of hooning it on dirt, with its lower number of competitors, higher run counts, and longer run times. It might shake up some of those teams/cars that have been so well honed by repeated appearances, sparking new innovations and creativity. And editorially it could (would?) tie in well with expanding interest in (and the magazine's expanding coverage of) rally. Just a thought.

BTW, I'm really looking forward to competing next year, no matter what rules are in place, as long as they don't outlaw borderline insanity, zip ties, Fiats, or duct tape.

I think adding a mandatory rallycross would reduce the quality of cars entered.

Bear with me.

Look at the top finishing cars this year, namely the Vorshlag and Nelson entries. Both of those cars are optimized for pavement, one for AutoX, one for drag. Both would suffer significantly if they had to be able to tear around through the dirt as well. I think it'd be a case of "jack of all trades, master of none."

I loved the event and I really don't think it should change (except providing some kinda thing that defines clearly how the concours is scored). It is so awesome the way it is now.

unevolved wrote: I think adding a mandatory rallycross would reduce the quality of cars entered. Bear with me. Look at the top finishing cars this year, namely the Vorshlag and Nelson entries. Both of those cars are optimized for pavement, one for AutoX, one for drag. Both would suffer significantly if they had to be able to tear around through the dirt as well. I think it'd be a case of "jack of all trades, master of none."

yup. I like my car too much to punnish it on a rallycross

rallycross is cool it just doesn't mesh well with the other events and many of us have never so much as attended a rallycross as they are not available in mine or many other regions

A fire extinguisher is a good idea as we had planned to to run one anyway but it just never got mounted.Tires should be free on the build because I saw several cars with cracked tires and thats not to safe.In the event of a chance of rain the top 10 cars from Friday should run first because chances are it might not change the results that much.

I have no dog in this fight but were I to have to oversee this thing I'd be all about simplification... even playing fields are for spec series. If your E36 M3 is awesome because you fabricated your own polished aluminum body in your basement with a planish hammer but didn't feel like hooking up silly E36 M3 like wipers or horns,,, you should be allowed to destroy the field with it anyway. Real race cars built from scratch don't have E36 M3 they don't need. Get rid of ALL the rules except total cost and "must have started as some kind of production car" and you will see ingenuity. If you feel participants must have working headlights... make them run the cones at night and they will show up with them.

Limit team size to 5. That way you don't have unlimited time resources. A 30 man team needs 3 more entries and has to fight with each other even if they share the shop.

Concourse is based solely on judges opinion and counts for 20% of the total score. Good enough to contribute to the overall but not enough to overcome an ugly but better performing car.

I think adding a mandatory rallycross would reduce the quality of cars entered.

I agree with the above statement. There is no way I would put my car in the dirt with all the work and time put into it.

I also think forcing the cars to be "street legal" would hurt participation. Some cars are bought cheep as totaled, no title cars because they no longer can be driven on the roads legal.

As for the pro-drivers, it was mentioned that this event is about who car build the best car not who is the best driver. Having the best drivers drive is what demonstrates who can build the best car within the budget which is what I thought this entire event is about.

This was my first event as a competitor. I like the rules just as they are. It would be nice however if we could at least have one pass on the drag strip on Friday, weather permitting, in case it rains on Saturday.

If I ruled the world, here's what I think I'd do with the $20XX:

Have a "parc expose" style showing for an hour just like rally cars do before the event begins. This could be at a local coffee shop or similar, let's say it starts at 8 am on Friday. All cars should display their budget on a spreadsheet or similar during the parc expose so that competitors and commoners alike could see what it really took to make the machine. It would also be fun (but not required) if people had some pictures of their build to show off. At this time, competitors would also have a chance to see the other cars and vote for their favorite, something that is really hard to do with the format as it is normally. All cars would be checked that they meet all the rules at this point, just like is done with a tech inspection sheet at a rally race...lights, wipers, horn, fenders, windshields, etc. are accounted for and functioning. At 9 am, everybody DRIVES their machine from the coffee shop to the race track; this gives the locals a lot more visibility to this event, something that is seriously lacking, and also serves as a litmus test to the vehicles actual ability to be driven on the street. After arriving at the track, business then continues as it does today. If your car can't finish the short drive without intervention (tow, help from crew, etc.), then you DNF, just like in rally. You also have to autocross with the DOT tires you drove on from the coffee shop.

Yes, I know a lot of people will think the street driving part is a big hassle because of licensing and insuring stuff, but IMO that is something that is really lacking in the event. Many of these vehicles are barely even capable of competing for 10 minutes without breaking, let alone driving around town, and I don't consider that a good thing. I'm sure people also don't want to drive their nearly corded R-comps from the coffee shop either, but again, I think it would make builds seem like a competitive vehicle that you could race sustainably. If a $20xx race car goes through a transmission, set of tires, head gasket, etc. every weekend you compete...well, then it's a long way from a cheap race car, which is the whole point here. At that rate, a reliable $4000 car would be a hell of a lot better racer value.

I know it's a departure from previous challenge mentality, but I don't think it's a huge departure or a negative departure. I like most of the other rules...most. The only other thing I would change is the rules allowing bolt in but not weld in to skip the budget (what's the performance difference between a bunch of 1/2" bolts, a really clever set of pinch bolts, or a weld on each corner???). I think all cage stuff should be in the budget. I definitely don't think tires should be excluded from the budget or have the tire rules changed otherwise.

Thanks for listening.

Bryce

If I have to have a car somewhere by 8am I'd never make it because I stay up too late hanging out with people I only see once a year, which is the real reason I go in the first place.

I like the idea of a "Cars 'n' Coffee" meet for Challenge cars. Even if it's optional to cover those who simply can't drive their car for legal reasons.

Would be an awesome way to gain more coverage for the event, get more local interested, maybe more subscribers to the magazine, maybe some locals will build a car for next year, etc etc etc.

There's really no downside to it.

turbojunker wrote: If I have to have a car somewhere by 8am I'd never make it because I stay up too late hanging out with people I only see once a year, which is the real reason I go in the first place.

If you're sleeping, you're doing it wrong! Sleep after you go home.

Bryce

I like Bryce's idea for the pre-show, but I'd do it the night before, and I feel it could be done on private property, too. I'm not sure if the Alachua County Fairground is empty the weekend of the Challenge, but it's only a few miles from the track, and is at one of the corners you turn to get to the track from the hotel (if you follow the GRM directions). It really makes me wish the host hotel were nice enough to just pick up and move to the airport area instead of the interstate. Anyway, you could show off the night before, present your budgets to the competitors and show your car at that point, then the next day is the start of the driving events.